Should we be able to cull Male deer during the Rut??

Should we be allowed to shoot Male deer during the Rut?


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Monkey Spanker

Well-Known Member
Ok, it’s Friday and I’m feeling a little controversial!:norty:
It saddens me slightly to see the ‘Can’t wait for the Rut’ posts which appear about this time every year! I don’t remember ever seeing a ‘can’t wait for the Doe season’ thread?

:rolleyes:
So here’s my question….
Should we be allowed to cull deer during the Rut?
It is the only time really during the entire year that shooting male deer could actually create deer welfare issues!
I fully appreciate that some areas need every opportunity they can get to achieve cull figures, but there are also a few negative points which shooting during the rut can create:

  • Prime animals which nature would have intended to survive end up being culled as they lose their normal senses during this time and expose themselves to danger. This can result in ‘less able’ stalkers culling decent animals which they would not normally have the skills to connect with.
  • Using mating calls to effectively ‘honey-trap’ male deer may be viewed as being unethical by our critics?
  • Opportunist stalkers in smaller areas where there is no general area cull plan can end up shooting the best animals which other neighbouring areas with more morals would have actually left!
  • Prime animals are culled before they have had chance to pass on their genes therefore lowering the genetic quality of the stock.
  • Shooting prime animals in hard antler gives deer management the unfortunate title of ‘trophy hunting’!
  • Venison gained from rutting male deer is not good to eat!
If anything, it would be better to open up the season on male deer for the entire year except for the Rut!
Please feel free to discuss!
 
Totally agree as with other threads not many stalkers pick and choose the bucks but banjo everything they see. I cannot understand why we are allowed to do it they will still be there after the rut and the genes of the best ones will be passed on. I personally am not bothered about so called trophies and enjoy the sport for myself and not to show off my prize. As again just as shooters need big bags and no one wants any birds because they dont like pheasant to a lot its numbers and size!
 
Interesting...as one might argue with you, we don't go catching salmon when they run up to spawn either (edit...we do,,but stop before the spawning actually begins of course)

mind, if the culling is conducted with a proper and educated view to deer management, I see it as an opportunity to select a few cull beasts which may have evaded you in the earlier summer, yearing spikers and button bucks. In addition, when it comes to the stags, I see it as an opportunity to find some of the very old and going back beasts that really should be taken off to reduce the riks of in breeding, etc. I have at times seen stags hold 20-50 hinds that really should not be, and culling these beasts in the early rut is a good chance to let a promising satellite stag into the breeding lines.

therefore, I voted 'yes'...mind, what should not be done is cull indescriminately during the rut, calling big bucks with breeding potential in close and shooting them. that's not the way to go about it IMHO.
 
A general answer to this might be that it does not actually appear to have any negative consequences: despite decades (if not hundreds) of years of intensified effort during the rut, there doesn't appear to have been any long term negative effects on the population. In specific answer to your points:

1. Does it matter that 'less able' stalkers have a better chance during the rut? Or do you feel that only the best stalkers should be allowed to shoot the best deer?
2. Why would call use be regarded as unthethical? It does not add suffering.
3. Opportunism will be a problem wherever animals can move between areas covered by different people with different agendas.
4. There is no evidence of a decline in the genetic quality of the population - if anything, the reverse appear to be the case.
5. Much of deer stalking IS trophy hunting. Whether or not this is appropraite or desirable is a separate issue.
6. Agreed, though it's not really anywhere near as bad as people make out, and roe buck venison during the rut is still better than red deer venison from just about any time of year.
 
To many people now make quite a bit of money from calling and shooting bucks during the rut, you only have to read the mags and watch the Internet shows to see this, therefore shooting bucks in the rut will never ever be stopped.
 
What about the ethics raised above about shooting during the rut?:confused:
MS

I don't see a problem with them - personally I don't think that the 'sporting' aspect should be an area for legislation, none of them impact directly on the welfare of the animals being shot - A legally enforced close season for females is entirely understandable and desirable, as we don't want to orphan animals reliant on their mothers milk, and we could get into a very interesting discussion about the ability of the foetus to feel pain and suffering - however with male animals none of these apply.
 
Isn't the rut also an opportunity to cull the poorer or injured beasts?

Where we are talking about heard animals, I find the rut to be the best time of year to get a good look at more Stags/bucks than usual. In trems of Fallow it's an excellent opportunity to take poor prickets and sorrels.

Where do you stand on Muntjac, have you ever called them?

As everyone stalking during the Rut is operating within the law then it seems it's down to the individual to be guided by their own moral judgement.

If we are talking about the Roe Rut then, personally I do very little but, that's because I'm not a huge fan of Summer stalking rather than any moral issue.

I wonder how the professionals feel about this issue?

 

If anything, it would be better to open up the season on male deer for the entire year except for the Rut!
Please feel free to discuss!
[/QUOTE]

I dont actually take many during the rut but on two of my grounds have an out of season license for bucks and red stags just dont post pics for the hassle i would get for shooting out of season as i have seen it before on here.
The same applies for shooting bucks /stags in velvet if you have a need to for whatever reason then its your choice and legal then why not as shooting a stag/buck will not have a direct effect to other deer
the only thing i have issues with is like from a previous post about shooting does or hinds at the wrong time ,atb wayne
 
the rut is also a great time to catch up with some dangerous switch stags that fight for dominance,,,put that bullet where it counts :)
 
well i have a "thing" for calling roe bucks but only shot 1 myself last year and that was a cull buck , but i did call several for other stalkers .

bit i only use rut as a tool for trimming up the last of my cull bucks and leave the mature to sort the does out , unless there is a real old buck going back that might be a nice trophy for the wall .
 
Another aspect is that the rut takes place in the school holidays & summer so there are far more people about in the countryside (which i try to avoid) so avoiding that for me would be another positive & may provide access to some areas used for the summer months for recreation but may then be available for stalking as a trade off, I'd prefer it if the season lasted longer but missed the summer months on males for that reason, but I realy don't mind and see the argument for both.
 
Totally agree with MS's posts.

I don't see the need for a closed season on Male deer at all but If there was a re-jig it stands to reason that for welfare reasons they would be protected during their rut.

I always look forward to the doe/hind season. Winter is my favourite time of year.
 
A general answer to this might be that it does not actually appear to have any negative consequences: despite decades (if not hundreds) of years of intensified effort during the rut, there doesn't appear to have been any long term negative effects on the population. In specific answer to your points:

1. Does it matter that 'less able' stalkers have a better chance during the rut? Or do you feel that only the best stalkers should be allowed to shoot the best deer?
It doesn't matter who shoots them, but they should shoot the right ones! Shooting during the rut may be perceived as having an unfair advantage over the deer, much the same as lamping them? Anyone shooting the best deer during the rut should question themselves!

2. Why would call use be regarded as unthethical? It does not add suffering.
It may not cause direct suffering but it once again gives the stalker an unfair advantage and can cause long term welfare issues as already highlighted.

3. Opportunism will be a problem wherever animals can move between areas covered by different people with different agendas.
During the rut, certain animals become less gregarious and their territories will alter. They will move around a lot more which is a fact reflected by the increase in RTA's around rutting times. Opportunism will undoubtedly increase during this time.

4. There is no evidence of a decline in the genetic quality of the population - if anything, the reverse appear to be the case.
Really? Stalking has changed a lot over recent years. There has been a massive increase in recreational stalking as well as foreign visitors.
Many are only interested in shooting males! Meanwhile, the females continue to reproduce. The population of deer continues to rise. If there are too many deer in an area, it is an accepted fact that the quality will deteriorate! Let's not confuse quantity with quality here?!

5. Much of deer stalking IS trophy hunting. Whether or not this is appropraite or desirable is a separate issue.
Many of our recreational stalkers and foreign visitors are content to pay vast sums of money to secure the deer rights over areas of land, but they only want to shoot trophies! The best time to do this is during the rut where easy targets can be selected with minimal time and effort. Meanwhile, the population increases whilst all the less wealthy local boys can only watch in dismay at the awful management of one of our countries finest assets! If it was harder to do, maybe this wouldn't happen and our best heads would remain in this country still attached to the bodies of fine live animals as nature would have intended?


6. Agreed, though it's not really anywhere near as bad as people make out, and roe buck venison during the rut is still better than red deer venison from just about any time of year.
That's just a matter of taste!:lol:
[/QUOTE]
 
On Monday saw two lovely six pointers declined to shoot either, prehaps i am soft but what is the point of shooting a very good looking roe buck before he has the chance to pass on his genes. Prehaps the Buck season should start on 1st September? The medal heads I have shot have always been at harvest time and I then have not been so soft. Too many bucks are getting targeted ok the old and weedy one need shooting, but there are a lot of good animals being shot on sight. Many of us have small areas to shoot on so management is difficult but over the years we have built up a good idea of what is about. Much harder not to shoot a good buck than to shoot it!!

D
 
Isn't the rut also an opportunity to cull the poorer or injured beasts?

Where we are talking about heard animals, I find the rut to be the best time of year to get a good look at more Stags/bucks than usual. In trems of Fallow it's an excellent opportunity to take poor prickets and sorrels.

Where do you stand on Muntjac, have you ever called them?

As everyone stalking during the Rut is operating within the law then it seems it's down to the individual to be guided by their own moral judgement.

If we are talking about the Roe Rut then, personally I do very little but, that's because I'm not a huge fan of Summer stalking rather than any moral issue.

I wonder how the professionals feel about this issue?

I think my post should have maybe highlighted Roe, but the same goes for other species really. It is an ideal opportunity to compare and select good cull animals from the larger species which I would agree with but it does still disturb their overall breeding pattern? If people carried out ethical and selective deer management during this period then it would be fine. Sadly though, many don't and just see it as an easy opportunity to shoot specimen deer!
If there are relatively low densities of roe, it is also feasible that does may not be covered that year if the local buck is removed prior to the rut.
Calling muntjac can also be very unethical as you are generally imitating the call of a fawn in distress! It is normally a female which charges in and gets shot. You may feel great about your abilities, but you have probably just orphaned a young fawn nearby which the Doe was charging back to protect! Buck will also come to a call occasionally but that is usually out of curiosity or because they think there is a doe with a very young fawn that might be after a bit of action!;)
MS
 
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