Beaters and Pickers-Up. Any clear guidance?

On a slightly more serious note
I have always been employed since age 15 so have never jumped through the hoops of the self employed , my brother however has been self employed in the building trade for decades , and as far as i understand it from him is if he works for multiple different builders over the course of a tax year (as opposed to just one ) he can continue to be self employed , how that fits in with beating would depend upon the individual circumstances of the beater eg multiple shoots / multiple different jobs ?
I did ask the question of our keeper at the end of last season - i did not get a coherent or repeatable answer.
For me personally , i would rather do it for free than pay any more tax .
 
I consider myself employed at the beginning of a drive. By the end I'm sacked (there could be a case for unfair dismissal as I'm certain I was in the right field despite the keepers colourful anglo saxon to the contrary). I'm usually reemployed by the start of the next drive but this can be on the basis that I will 'walk the furthest out and bring that one partridge in the far field back to the cover crop please'.
If i did it for the cash I'd never beat again.
Its about giving summit back for those few weeks when those with deeper pockets than mine can enjoy their chosen sport.
From a logistical viewpoint and referring to the OP until HMRC provides clear guidance (or until its tested in court which is where I can see it going sometime this season with an 'example' being made of one shoot or another) then we are all left guessing.
Either way its going to be specific to each beater.
Under 16 can 'earn' a certain amount before tax as can a retiree, without disclosing it.
Those in employment are the ones I can see a problem with.
Self employed should have a great opportunity to claim for all their out of pocket expenses for attending to beat however, I'm sure this isnt what hmrc want to end up having to administer.
For those on sick/unemployment benefit then, despite their important contribution to the beating line, theyve had it good for a long time and have to face up to the gravy train coming to an abrupt halt.
 
Does BASC have any advice on this?

Employment both permanent, temporary and part-time are complicated areas of law (EPCA alone is a work of black magic).

In it's simplest form if you are a beater and you get paid CIH then you need to file this in a self-assessment return.

In it's more complicated form you are an employee, now that starts to really complicate things - new pension rules for example.

More complicated still you are a contractor, and need to hold both accounts and insurance and have a contract...if this is your only work.

Personally, HMRC should provide clarity, it could be argued that payment is a gift of less than £3000 and does not need to be declared at all. Equally it could be a 'gratuity' for travel and expenses...think the smart man works out how to do this through loop holes not avoidance.

Has it really come to this that HMRC are chasing down beaters cash?! Not exactly going to pay for a new aircraft carrier is it? (although the idea of having the aircraft for these but not the capital ships is humourous..)
 
Unfortunately, nothing definitive from BASC, CA, NGO, GWCT, HMRC, SACS et al.
I agree with much that Limulus states. I should imagine the main driving force is that as of 1 April of this year, all PAYE has gone real-time, and (potential) issues have been raised with regards to whether there are implications for shoots. It may be that we are actually looking for a problem that isn't actually there (much as the hype involved with the millennium bug - how many IT consultants/companies made a fortune out of the scare of your entire IT system crashing at midnight on 1999?).
I sincerely hope that there will be some definitive guidance and before too long.
 
The simple answer to this matter has been mentioned before, as a self employed stalker I keep a full record of all my outgoings and costs i.e fuel, clothing, food and accommodation taken while working, mobile phone calls and other business materials including bullets and gun maintenance, these are then offset against my earnings and submitted which results in a tax figure which is often in my favour.
Beaters could claim for two sets of clothing one for warm weather and the other for later in the season, two sets at least of boots, their travel expenses and other items such as dog food and vet bills this I am sure would easily cover any tax demand and may even result in a refund as even 90 days beating at £30 per day would not earn that much set against the outlay.
Though I do think that this is a bit of a storm in a tea cup when you take into account the resources that would need to be deployed by HMCR for a very small return compared to VAT evasion by business.
 
It may be that we are actually looking for a problem that isn't actually there .

I would suspect that is the most likely, someone has put 2 and 2 together and come up with 5 the simple facts are its a token gesture on most shoots to acknowledge your help and buy you a few beers afterwards. Most down here are well below minimum wage and people do it for the enjoyment and fringe benefits and most would do it unpaid. However there are the retired and unemployed who do it and top up their income which I struggle to see is that bad in the scheme of things obviously some shoots pay more but I can't see our £25 a day costing less to collect than it would bring in.
As ever the "definitive" advice will be the only advice they can give which is register everybody and pay any tax due as that is the only course guaranteed not to be wrong
 
This has been on the BASC web site for a few months. It has been checked by our tax advisors and we are double checking yet again
.
Key Issues

There will be an article on this issue in Shooting Times tomorrow

In a nutshell, all income is potentially taxable, it all depends on what your tax status is and what tax band you sit in. Tax law is not changing, just how employment and pay is reported

David
 
I am surprised that HMRC class someone who supplies and uses their own equipment (stick, dog(s)) and protective clothing and are on a fixed rate for the job regardless of how long the activity may take as employees. They use precisely those criteria in other fields to define self employment.

If the shoot supplied the pro. clo. and issued dogs (and were responsible for their upkeep) and also guaranteed the hourly rate for the day...fair enough the beater is an employee.

​Alan
 
if you ignore the "self empoyed/ employee" argument the case is simple. in both cases a beater would come to a shoot in his own gear with his own dog,in many cases the beaters use there own cars. all these items may be claimed back from the tax man (whole or in part) in the same way that a tradesmen working for a building firm is empoyed with his tools and can claim back the cost of them. so lets tally it up

One set of beating clothes £200
feeding for 2 dogs for a year £250
fuel (and a percentage of other car costs) £100
any other items that you use only for beating and is required to do the job £150
total £700

this would mean that you would have to earn £700 BEFORE you would break even on beating and then you would pay tax. these are the same rules used for tradesmen or anyone who requires somthing to do thier job that is not given to them by there employer.

and how many of you (really thinking about it) make money from beating or are you helping to pay for your hobby??


Andy7mm
 
I know some of the employed lads at work claim for tools they have to buy to do their work and the cost of transporting those tools to a place of work in their own vehicles. Apparently up to £1000 a year for tools is no problem. When they asked HMRC about fuel because they had to travel to various places of work in their own vehicles HMRC were fine about them claiming 40p/mile for expenses
 
if you ignore the "self empoyed/ employee" argument the case is simple. in both cases a beater would come to a shoot in his own gear with his own dog,in many cases the beaters use there own cars. all these items may be claimed back from the tax man (whole or in part) in the same way that a tradesmen working for a building firm is empoyed with his tools and can claim back the cost of them. so lets tally it up

One set of beating clothes £200
feeding for 2 dogs for a year £250
fuel (and a percentage of other car costs) £100
any other items that you use only for beating and is required to do the job £150
total £700

this would mean that you would have to earn £700 BEFORE you would break even on beating and then you would pay tax. these are the same rules used for tradesmen or anyone who requires somthing to do thier job that is not given to them by there employer.

and how many of you (really thinking about it) make money from beating or are you helping to pay for your hobby??


Andy7mm


Andy7mm,

And how many of us keep the receipts, let alone for six years.

Stan
 
This has been on the BASC web site for a few months. It has been checked by our tax advisors and we are double checking yet again
.
Key Issues

There will be an article on this issue in Shooting Times tomorrow

In a nutshell, all income is potentially taxable, it all depends on what your tax status is and what tax band you sit in. Tax law is not changing, just how employment and pay is reported

David

David,
Thank you for that link. Pardon my belligerence, but also on your website is the following http://www.basc.org.uk/en/departmen...s-and-pickers-up-employed-or-selfemployed.cfm which seems to throw uncertainty into whether beaters are employees or self-employed. It actually contradicts the information in your link which states that beaters are employees, but casual employees, who are unlikely to qualify for PAYE and NIC.

I would reiterate, that maybe we are looking for a problem that doesn't exist - the rules have not changed, but the way in which it is reported and accounted for to HMRC has changed?
Regards
David
(BASC Trade Member)
 
Information specific to beaters here: http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/payerti/employee-starting/special-situations/temps/harvest-casuals.htm

Beaters are seen typically by HMRC to be employed on a series of 1 day contracts.

ST should be a good read
David

Thank you again BASC, that is most useful too.
It does appear that there is a lot more 'noise' being created around this issue than maybe is necessary?
I look forward to reading tomorrow's article in ST.
Regards
David
 
Evening all,
David, I took your advice and went to the HMRC website via the BASC website. As you know this gives you a set of questions to answer on the HMRC s own website, where once you submit your answers they give you an on line answer. No matter which way I have done this the answer from HMRC comes out the same, the worker is self employed. I have printed the answer and summery off and sent every beater a copy together with the shoot dates.

To this end I am treating my beaters and pickers up as self employed, as per the HMRC own answers, and if they kick off the only defence I have is that they have told me that these people ARE self employed.

I will take a note of all NI numbers and the names and addresses of all my beaters and pickers up and have asked them to keep any receipts for petrol, clothing, dog food etc. in case they get a pull so that they can off set any tax.

It is, as far as I can make out and using the HMRCs own website and guidance, a fact that these are working as self employed workers. If HMRC would like to change this, by the look of it they will have to change their own calculator on their own website.

Mark
 
I also have heard that you need not do any of this if you do not run PAYE as an employer. If this is the case this would take out all the DIY shoots and a great many friendly syndicates.
Can anyone shed any light?


Mark
 
Evening all,
David, I took your advice and went to the HMRC website via the BASC website. As you know this gives you a set of questions to answer on the HMRC s own website, where once you submit your answers they give you an on line answer. No matter which way I have done this the answer from HMRC comes out the same, the worker is self employed. I have printed the answer and summery off and sent every beater a copy together with the shoot dates.

To this end I am treating my beaters and pickers up as self employed, as per the HMRC own answers, and if they kick off the only defence I have is that they have told me that these people ARE self employed.

I will take a note of all NI numbers and the names and addresses of all my beaters and pickers up and have asked them to keep any receipts for petrol, clothing, dog food etc. in case they get a pull so that they can off set any tax.

It is, as far as I can make out and using the HMRCs own website and guidance, a fact that these are working as self employed workers. If HMRC would like to change this, by the look of it they will have to change their own calculator on their own website.

Mark

Hi Mark,
I can't disagree with you. Which ever way you look at it, and whether you use the HMRC online questionnaire or HMRC definition of a casual employee, there is an argument that whether they are treated as self-employed or casual employees there is no difference: tax or NIC does not need to taken at source, they can be paid net, and you have to keep a record of who and how much you pay them?
David
 
I must stress I am no tax expert.

There has been on on-going discussion about whether or not beaters are employed or self-employed, hence the link on the BASC web site to the HMRC on line test.

Looking at this from a risk assessment / employer liability point of view, it boils down to the ‘master and servant’ relationship. The master or controlling hand is the employer and the servant is the employee. Beaters are typically employed on a series of 1 days contracts.

The people receiving money for beating and picking up have always been liable to pay income tax on these earnings, provided their total income is over the tax free threshold. This has not changed.

HMRC have changed how earnings are reported and the emphasis is now on the employer to tell HMRC who’s worked for them, when and how much has been paid.

David
 
There must be a way of setting this up properly to conform, lets face it most beaters choose what days they can and can't do, beat on numerous shoots and treat it like a hobby rather than anything else. To me that meets at worst self employment as you choose when you will work and when you won't, if you look at our industry we have self employed couriers working for us, we issue the self billing invoices and they get paid when they do work for us. The only difference being they are all registered as self employed, when you look up the scale in our industry last week there was an undercover boss program on DHL where one of the guys was a "self employed" courier for them. He only worked for them, drove a liveried vehicle, wore a uniform and somehow they make it fit the rules of self employment, thats presumably what you can do with the right tax expert wording things correctly.
My inclination is with Mark if you go to those steps so you know who has worked and keep records and stick to your belief they were self employed its gone a fair way to keeping them happy and give you the backup were you ever to get investigated,
 
So, on the one hand the HMRC online questionnaire, however it is answered, states that beaters are self-employed; on another section of the HMRC website it states they are casual employees.
So, as a shoot we could do the following:
Treat them as an employee: pay them, note down their relevant details, keep records;
Treat them as self-employed: pay them, note down their relevant details, keep records.
I don't see any difference here from the shoots point of view? It seems as though all we need to do is pay them, note down their relevant details and keep records, and if queried by the HMRC give them both scenarios as obtained from the HMRC website and get HMRC to decide which they want to do! And either way, there appears to be no obligation to the shoot (provided earnings are below LEL) for PAYE or NIC?

Some clear, definitive answers are required.
 
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