Hips x ray on gwp age to have done

The hip scoring is just an indication that there should (nothing is for certain) be no problems passed to pups as a result of the breeding.

how the pup is brought up through the first 9 months or so of its life and exercised during that time is every bit as important in my opinion....
 
The hip scoring is just an indication that there should (nothing is for certain) be no problems passed to pups as a result of the breeding.

It's not that clear cut! Really.

I see it as:

1. A sign of responsible breeding
2. A sign that both parents have good hips and that the puppy should be more likely to have good hips versus one born from parents of unknown status.
 
It's not that clear cut! Really.

I see it as:

1. A sign of responsible breeding
2. A sign that both parents have good hips and that the puppy should be more likely to have good hips versus one born from parents of unknown status.
100%
And....
A sign of irresponsible breeding and not caring for a breed by breeding dogs that have no scores done.
9/10 people who do this care about money and not the dogs/pups interests.no scoring.

People who have seen dysplasic pups will not take this lightly-it's not a nice thing to see.

The KC are to blame too-litters registered should have compulsory health tests-this wont happen as too much money is made from registrations.
People who care try-people who don't breed anyway.

Even if dogs aren't to be bred HD scores should be done anyway to see how your dogs hips are.
Just because its got low hip/elbow scores doesn't mean it should be bred........

​People are too quick to breed from Fido in the UK-thus the problems
 
The hip scoring is just an indication that there should (nothing is for certain) be no problems passed to pups as a result of the breeding.

how the pup is brought up through the first 9 months or so of its life and exercised during that time is every bit as important in my opinion....


DNA tests are for certain.

I fully agree that eradicating hereditary hip displacia would be amazing. I just think that too much weight is put in a flawed system. The KC and its approved farmers have brainwashed the general public into thinking its the be all and end all of buying a puppy.

What if my young puppy plays with a lurcher every day and develops hip displacia. Not hereditary hip displacia but as a result of the puppies environment. What if it has poor scores (at 12 months) but still becomes a FTCh? Should it be allowed to breed? I can see that hip scoring can reduce the number of instances of displacia but it also removes a lot of DNA from the gene pool, sometimes unnecessarily in my opinion. I'd rather we had a more liberal approach than the totalitarian one that we currently have.

​I also still maintain that those who shout the loudest for it make the most money out of it.
 
Shabz you're 100% correct-DNA testing very very important too.
Pray tell which DNA test is available for the skeletal formation of the hips and elbows?
Answer-there isn't one.
Youre right though-DNA testing should be conducted as well.

Again-just because the dogs in question pass ALL relevant health tests does NOT mean they should be bred.
A whole host of things need to be considered prior to breeding a litter.
Things that don't occur enough here in the UK.
 
Shabz you're 100% correct-DNA testing very very important too.
Pray tell which DNA test is available for the skeletal formation of the hips and elbows?
Answer-there isn't one.
Youre right though-DNA testing should be conducted as well.

Again-just because the dogs in question pass ALL relevant health tests does NOT mean they should be bred.
A whole host of things need to be considered prior to breeding a litter.
Things that don't occur enough here in the UK.


Ii know that there isn't a DNA test for hips and elbows, I'm saying that there would have to be one developed for me to put as much faith in it as people seem to put into hip scores.

For what it's worth, I would far rather have a system like they have in Germany for the Drahthaar. With health, working ability and conformation tested before matings are allowed. I would love to see a similar scheme in this country. Half the GWPs here wouldn't exist!

The kennel club would never administer it though, they wouldn't make nearly as much money from it.
 
Ii know that there isn't a DNA test for hips and elbows, I'm saying that there would have to be one developed for me to put as much faith in it as people seem to put into hip scores.

For what it's worth, I would far rather have a system like they have in Germany for the Drahthaar. With health, working ability and conformation tested before matings are allowed. I would love to see a similar scheme in this country. Half the GWPs here wouldn't exist!

The kennel club would never administer it though, they wouldn't make nearly as much money from it.
Exactamundo......
Your FTCh with crap hips should NOT be bred from either.Hips are scored as you say with the Drahthaars too.....
 
Which FTCh? The five year old one that would have had a good score but was tested too late, or the pup that doesn't have hereditary hip displacia but played with the big dogs too much? I personally think it's a little short sighted to discount either of these (hypothetical, I wish I had two FTChs!) dogs from breeding. Especially in a breed that has a very small gene pool.

Do you breed your Labradors wolverine? What do you test them for?
 
Shabz - there are lots of dogs that have played rough and being hip-scored at 4 or 5 years old and still come in comfortably below the BMS!

It's not perfect, but it is the best we have at this time. A dog with a score over the BMS should not be bred from - it's very simple.

I can't see there ever being a simple DNA test for hip dysplasia as I suspect there are many different genetic and environmental factors at play. Unlike with some conditions where 2 copies of a faulty gene means the puppies get PRA (for example).
 
Bad hips....full stop should not be bred from.
Short sighted or not.....
Drahthaar in Germany-bad hips-no mating,like you said.

Yes I breed my labs-to bitches I approve of only.
Bitches need to work well,look like a lab(not a whippet),have all health tests in place and produce all relevant certification for Hips,Elbows,eye certificate(annual test),test for PRA,CNM,EIC and TVD.....does this answer your question?
​Those bitches could be the UK's best working dog if no test above.....no mating-simple.
This is what any buyer of puppies needs to do......

Ask for what genetic tests/clearances has been done on each parent of a litter of puppies. Then ask to see proof of any testing the breeder has claimed to have done. Ask to see the certificates or documents to prove their dogs have been x-rayed free of Hip Dysplasia AND Elbow Dysplasia. Most breeders will have a certificate for their cardiac clearances too. For eyes the breeder should have a certificate of eye exam findings. Optigen sends notice of whether or not a dog is clear (Normal), a carrier or affected with the PRA gene. The testing facility for CNM and EIC will also send a certificate to show whether or not a dog is clear (Normal), a carrier or affected.


If any breeder cannot provide you with PROOF that these genetic tests have been done, buy at your own risk! Some breeders claim that their dogs have never limped or their own veterinarians have said the genetic testing was unnecessary. I'm sorry, but in my opinion, any veterinarian who says that genetic testing of Labrador Retrievers isn't necessary before breeding should lose their ability to practice.That is totally irresponsible. Granted, clearances do not 100% guarantee that a problem might not happen to an offspring, but the chances of it occuring are lessened.
 
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Shabz - there are lots of dogs that have played rough and being hip-scored at 4 or 5 years old and still come in comfortably below the BMS!

It's not perfect, but it is the best we have at this time. A dog with a score over the BMS should not be bred from - it's very simple.

I can't see there ever being a simple DNA test for hip dysplasia as I suspect there are many different genetic and environmental factors at play. Unlike with some conditions where 2 copies of a faulty gene means the puppies get PRA (for example).

Yes, I believe you. I'm just trying to point out that its not the infallable system that its made out to be.

Refusing to advertise puppies bred from parents with a score of one point over the average is a little bit mad when you consider that one dog can sire over 100 litters and they can all be advertised! That's just absolute hypocrisy and not anything to do with what's best for a breed. That's what's best for the bank balance.
 
That does answer my question. Thank you.
The reason I ask is because I bought a lab bitch from a KC approved farmer that had all of her tests done (the tests approved at the time) but she suffers from EIC. This was where I lost my faith in all things KC! I put my faith in the tests and they failed me. Never again!
 
The KC has a lot to answer for.
BGS,Springers,German Shepherds and not even going to go towards the non working breeds.
They ruin dogs not help the breeds.
Why,how?
All down to money....
If KC made a few things compulsory before breeding this would go a long way to helping things.
eg BGS-should not look like an elongated teckel x whippet,all should have hips done and tested for VW.
Labs-tests as said earlier should be the MINIMUM.
German Shepherds-their hips should not be lower than their back-all for show purposes and not "fit for purpose"
Springers-should be springers,not cocker size,springers hunt as well as cockers in all cover not just white grass,again this is NOT just the KC fault here but people breeding dogs who have not an incline as to what they are doing.
You have a dog,you think it's brilliant,don't breed just because you think it's brilliant,take a long,deep,hard look at yourself and the dog,bitch and think about what you'll produce from that mating.
Quality should always be the answer-not mediocre crap-there's too much of that on the go already.
 
Hi Guys

12 months of age on a wire, is that about the right time to have the hip score undertaken. or 18 months of age ?

ATB

​Phil

If you want the lowest possible score then yes, simply though you do get a better indication later on but people aren't interested in that just the score. I had mine done at 4 as I wasn't certain I would breed from her any earlier and she came back at 3:3 which I was happy with after a reasonable amount of work.
 
Shabz - there are lots of dogs that have played rough and being hip-scored at 4 or 5 years old and still come in comfortably below the BMS!

It's not perfect, but it is the best we have at this time. A dog with a score over the BMS should not be bred from - it's very simple.

I can't see there ever being a simple DNA test for hip dysplasia as I suspect there are many different genetic and environmental factors at play. Unlike with some conditions where 2 copies of a faulty gene means the puppies get PRA (for example).

Hello Apache.

Am following this thread with interest, but as somebody who knows little about the metrics involved for hip scoring, please can you advise if there is a standard scoring system for ALL breeds, or is their a variance according to the breed standards ?? Obviously a cocker does not have as much loading on its frame as a GWP / Lab for example, as the skeletal mass is less.... although you could say the cocker is a faster / busier dog, so may wear quicker....

There is a lot of subjectivity in this thread, so what would be a good score range, and what would be a bad score range ??

I am interested to learn more about this for my own knowledge.

All the best.

Neil.
 
Neil,there are Breed Mean Scores(BMS)for different breeds.
example-Labradors were 15,then with dogs being tested over time that has reduced to 14 now I believe.
14 being the sum of left and right hip score-ie 7/7 or 8/6 etc.
Now a dog that scored 14 does not mean that dog should be bred with another of 14-this is where hips can get worse.
Always try and breed a dog as such with a dog of something below 4(the sum again)
Improvement in a breed is always what should be aimed for not just because the dog ticks the box.
Anything above 14 in labs should not be bred from.
Anything below 14 should not ALWAYS be bred from.
Dogs of 14 can be bred from with preferably a dog which has scored a much lower score.
Anything below 10 I feel is a good score for labs.
Environmental factors can affect scores also.
Labs and wires are more prone than cockers to dysplasia,however,is this due to people actually looking for dysplasia in labs and wires?
Its only when people look for problems and find them that there are problems there......
People who care will look,no matter which breed.
 
Am following this thread with interest, but as somebody who knows little about the metrics involved for hip scoring, please can you advise if there is a standard scoring system for ALL breeds, or is their a variance according to the breed standards ?? Obviously a cocker does not have as much loading on its frame as a GWP / Lab for example, as the skeletal mass is less.... although you could say the cocker is a faster / busier dog, so may wear quicker....

All dogs scored to the same criteria.

The breed mean scores are published and freely available. They are updated periodically.

http://www.bva.co.uk/public/documents/Breed_Specific_Statistics_2012.pdf
 
Wolverine / Apache.

Brilliant, thank you both very much for the info and responses, I will read up and learn a bit more. I think this topic is one of those subjects where you need to get the base facts understood first, and then factor in additional info according to any specific / individual case after that.

Thanks again.

Neil.
 
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