Selling untagged venison

sikamalc

Administrator
Site Staff
We all know that any deer carcase or for that matter Wild Boar carcase if presented to a game dealer or butchery should have a legal tag on it with your hunters number on it which you are given on attaining your Level 1.

This is to show accountability and traceability through the system of venison from stalker to the plate of the consumer. But it appears that many gamedealers are still accepting untagged carcases. Where does this leave the whole system of accountability. Furthermore we still have some stalkers selling venison without a hunters number, especially those that poach deer.

What do members feel about this situation and should the system be strengthened in some way to prevent the sale of untagged carcases entering the food chain.
 
I have heard from one of the committee members that the NGO Deer branch are currently looking at this problem with the game dealers association and FSA - My local game dealer will not take anything that is not tagged and he also wants a copy of your meat hygiene certificate with photo ID that he keeps on his records so they can prove who you are. However that doesnt stop the Freds in the shed selling illegal cheap meat through local outlets (which is perfectly legal and they dont need a certificate).

The other problem with paper tags is that they need to be removed once the skin comes off so the traceability ends there.
 
Could you please redefine "food chain" do you mean comerical or other wise?

i have no issue not tagging deer that i give to friend and family. but these deer by DEFRAs rules don't enter the "food chain".

but when selling deer all should be tag mainly to cover my back if someone claims that my deer caused them to be unwell and to save any legal action.

Very unlike you Malc to posse such a loaded question.


Andy7mm
 
are they head and feet carcases you are referring to?

to be honest I have seen some of the "tagged" carcases and I wouldn't be happy eating them either!!
 
You say the Freds in the shed selling illegal meat (which is perfectly legal and don't need a certificate) ...........they do they have to have Level 1 with to offer or sell to a gamedealer or any other outlet. They can of course consume it themselves or give it away to their friends or relatives I believe. However it is illegal to sell it into the foodchain without a tag and your hunters number.
Correct me if I am wrong but once you have attained Level 1 this allows you to sell up to 300 carcases per year to a gamedealer or butchery.
 
Could you please redefine "food chain" do you mean comerical or other wise?

i have no issue not tagging deer that i give to friend and family. but these deer by DEFRAs rules don't enter the "food chain".

but when selling deer all should be tag mainly to cover my back if someone claims that my deer caused them to be unwell and to save any legal action.

Very unlike you Malc to posse such a loaded question.


Andy7mm


It is unlike me, I try to remain impartial
:lol:

I mean into the commercial chain, not friends and relatives. Gamedealers, Butcherys and or restaurants. It appears to me the of late it seems to be getting worse, with people selling venison who have not got their meat handling and hygiene. I have even heard of people asking opinions of selling RTA to gamedealers :eek:
 
If this was stopped surely it would slow down the poaching to a larger extent as there would be no outlet to get rid of carcasses for profit. It won't stop it all but i am sure it could make a huge difference, atb wayne
 
However it is illegal to sell it into the foodchain without a tag and your hunters number.


not suggesting that is what you are talking about
but it is relevant here
and there will ALWAYS be an outlet for poached venison because people will always buy cheap meat round the back of a pub from a mate of a mate who knows a farm where the farmer has a deer problem and they shoot them with a .22hornet under the lamp so no-one knows.......

After 1 January 2006, ALL game supplied to ANY game dealer (as opposed to a retail butcher or the final consumer) must have been inspected by a "trained hunter". A numbered declaration must be attached to each deer carcass to this effect.

One exemption does exist which allows deer carcasses only still to be sold to a GHE by unqualified hunters, but each carcass will have to be accompanied by its head (less trophy), red offal i.e. "the pluck", and perhaps feet too, for the resident vet's inspection. It is likely that venison dealers will offer a lower price for such carcasses to cover their additional rubbish disposal costs.


http://www.reading.ac.uk/foodlaw/pdf/uk-05048-wild-game-guidance.pdf

 
I think as the dealer is so heavily regulated that they should be able to take them without a tag. This may mean that the pluck needs to be included but that seems reasonable to me.
 
No such thing as hunter number is required, just a method of identifying the hunter i.e. name and address, the tag holds a serial number which can be traced in theory back to the hunter. I use tags from the BDS and leave the hunter number vacant.
 
No such thing as hunter number is required, just a method of identifying the hunter i.e. name and address, the tag holds a serial number which can be traced in theory back to the hunter. I use tags from the BDS and leave the hunter number vacant.


only in certain circumstances..
is the carcase whole? with pluck? vet inspection on site?
 
The problem with the trained hunter status is that it hold no real qualification and the GHE know this. Lev one is not the only way to sell and thank christ because Lev one will not qualify anyone to inspect a carcase properly. So Like said the best way for GHE to deal with deer is insist they get the head and red stuff.
In it current state Mal Lev 1 will not put quality traceable meat into the food chain. My opinion would be a checkable address.
What can we do imo we need to get our own house in order first before we blame the GHE .
 
In Germany and I believe other EU countries they have metal tags that are tamper proof.

All registered hunters get given a number of these tags at the start of each year, when they shoot the animal and have done the field gralloch they need to apply a tag. It has a sharp pin that goes through the skin and meat somewhere along the opening you made for the gralloch. Once the tag is closed they are not able to be opened again and can only be cut off. They are uniquely numbered so the hunting permit offices know which tag was given to which hunter. I believe it is a system that works that certainly would combat any issues with the non tagging of carcasses whether illegal carcasses or not.

I have produced my own tags made from a super strong tensile strength plastic material that does not tear even under an immense amount of tension. I print them on a specialist thermal transfer printer that my company sells. I then punch a hole and use a cable tie and put through one of the hocks. All the variable info can then be written on with a permanent pen, like a Sharpie Marker. All my carcasses get sent to the game dealer with a tag on.

I did some of these tags for some other forum members, maybe they would be able to say how they got on with them.

Below is an example of what the tag layout looks like. They can be totally customisable to say estate name, stalkers name, trained hunter number and even a logo if the need arises. The scale down the side is mm, so it makes the tag 76mm x 137mm.



Cheers
 
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Just so. Amazed at the confusion still out there!

You need a Hunters Tag to pass a carcass to/through a Game Dealer but, as just one example, to sell or give to a Country House Restaurant the following applies.

Thank you Klenchbalize for your email below re the On Site Supply of Game & Game Meat. I respond as follows to the questions:

1. If I simply handover the carcass/s to an estate “in the fur” and with my Trained Hunter tag after full carcass inspection (c/o field evisceration) does the responsibility thereafter rest solely with the estate to ensure compliance with FSA and local authority requirements prior to sale in their restaurant?

Yes, it does.

2. If an estate (or other) wishes me to handover the carcass in a semi-processed state; namely skinned and quartered, I understand I must register as a food business because I’m supplying prepared wild game meat even though in small quantities. Given this would entail full compliance with general hygiene requirements and a scenario-specific food safety management procedure based on HACCP principles, is such achievable without access to a deer larder?

Yes, processing of game is possible without access to a deer larder. All you need is a separate processing area in your private dwelling house for skinning carcases and/or producing wild game meat.

A Food Business Operator (such as those claiming the hunter exemption or certain retail exemptions) skinning carcases and/or producing wild game meat in moveable and/or temporary premises or in private dwelling houses where it is regularly prepared for placing on the market are required to do the following:

  • to register as a food business operator with your Local Council preferably, the environmental health department;
  • meet the traceability requirements of Regulation 178/2002;
  • have in place a food safety management system based on HACCP principles; and
  • comply with Regulation 852/2004 Annex ll, Chapter lll for the provision and maintenance of -
1. appropriate facilities to maintain personal hygiene;
2. cleaning and where appropriate, disinfection of food contact surfaces;
3. working utensils and equipment;
4. an adequate supply of potable water;
5. adequate storage and disposal of waste;
6. suitable facilities for maintaining food temperature conditions and monitoring them;
7. placing of foodstuffs to avoid the risk of contamination (including from animals and pests) as far as is reasonably practicable.

Attached is the live link to the Wild Game guidance and the accompanying annexes which contain detailed relevant information on wild game.

http://www.food.gov.uk/foodindustry/meat/wildgameguidance

Please feel free to contact me, should you require any further clarification on the above information.

Regards

Abi Abdul
Meat Hygiene & TSE Policy Branch
Hygiene & Microbiology Division
Rm 3B
Food Standards Agency
Aviation House
125 Kingsway
London
WC2B 6NH

why the mention of level 1, you need a large and small game permit, not a dsc 1
 
A game dealer not a million miles away from me buys untagged carcasses from the local poaching fraternity, For this reason I will not use said dealer for my tagged carcasses.
One reason is the BDS tags can easily be removed and placed on a carcass bought from poachers and I could end up carrying the can for some f***wit who failed to follow any basic hygeine rules on the deer before selling it to same game dealer.
Paul
 
I am a registered food business
it requires a letter saying "I would like to be a registered food business"

thats it
 
We all know that any deer carcase or for that matter Wild Boar carcase if presented to a game dealer or butchery should have a legal tag on it with your hunters number on it which you are given on attaining your Level 1.

This is to show accountability and traceability through the system of venison from stalker to the plate of the consumer.

Malc, I don't think the DSC1 Trained Hunter system is fit for purpose.

The "Trained Hunter" status is awarded based on a rather easy multiple choice test, no practical experience is required, the only gland, or even deer, that said "hunter" may have seen might have been as shown on a DVD during the course.

When I passed my DSC1 with BDS I was dismayed to discover that the only record of my hunter status was the DSC1 paper certificate from DMQ, it wasn't even clear that the number on this was also my hunter number.

The certificate makes no mention of "Trained Hunter", it only states "Large Game Meat Hygiene ... supply of large game to approved game handling establishments" which I don't think is quite the same thing. A Trained Hunter is not restricted to only supplying AGHEs.

I was expecting to receive something more official, which I could show to anyone who needed to see it, stating in laymans terms exactly what I was allowed to supply and to whom.

I've since met a member who did his DSC1 with I think NGO, and was awarded a credit card sized plastic certificate with his details, which seemed a slightly better solution.

Once awarded there does not seem to be any mechanism for tracing the hunter. I am not required to keep DMQ updated with any change of address, phone number, email details etc. In fact I would not know how to do so, even if I wanted to.

Even if I provided a butcher, pub, restaurant etc. with a copy of my certificate, for their records, there is no information on it which would show how my identity could be verified, e.g. a 'phone number to call where my registration details could be checked.

The deer tag format does not provide any backwards traceability information, e.g. there is no requirement for a unique serial number that links the tag with my cull records, that is if I keep any at-all. Neither is there any contact information required, e.g. postcode.

Anybody could impersonate me and fill out a fraudulent tag with my details, once they have sight of my Hunter Number, indeed I have heard of exactly this happening.

To be credible there needs to be:

1) An online database of all trained hunters, who should be required to verify their contact details at least annually, otherwise registration is suspended until done.

2) Database to be searchable by anyone who wishes, i.e. enter surname, initials, postcode, hunter number. Search results to state whether hunter is currently registered or not. A hunter would only provide these details to a potential customer, if asked. Otherwise the system I propose for the tag would be sufficient to confirm the hunter is genuine, in anonymity.

3) Database to be securely accessible by each trained hunter, who can be issued a block of unique tag serial codes. Hunter to write one such code on each tag. When tag is attached to deer, hunter required to register that the tag code has been issued, including date. Tag code registration to be made as simple as possible, e.g. by text message, email etc.

4) Database to be searchable by anyone who wishes, e.g. customers. Enter hunter number, tag code, tag date. Search results to state whether tag is valid, hunter is currently registered, and to issue a verification code confirming the check has been made. Search to be as simple as possible, e.g. website, text message, email etc.

5) Database to be searchable by approved authorities. Enter tag code, verification code, date of verification. Result to confirm that verification was done when stated. Approved authorities also able to access contact details of the hunter who issued the tag.

6) Severe penalties for any pub, butcher AGHE etc. found in possession of untagged carcasses, or selling processed venison without traceability back to a valid tag, and a record of a verification code having been obtained.

Without some sort of system like this, I think that deer tags are barely worth the paper they are printed on, e.g. 10p each from the BDS, or less if you make your own.
 
Malc, I don't think the DSC1 Trained Hunter system is fit for purpose.

The "Trained Hunter" status is awarded based on a rather easy multiple choice test, no practical experience is required, the only gland, or even deer, that said "hunter" may have seen might have been as shown on a DVD during the course.

When I passed my DSC1 with BDS I was dismayed to discover that the only record of my hunter status was the DSC1 paper certificate from DMQ, it wasn't even clear that the number on this was also my hunter number.

The certificate makes no mention of "Trained Hunter", it only states "Large Game Meat Hygiene ... supply of large game to approved game handling establishments" which I don't think is quite the same thing. A Trained Hunter is not restricted to only supplying AGHEs.

I was expecting to receive something more official, which I could show to anyone who needed to see it, stating in laymans terms exactly what I was allowed to supply and to whom.

I've since met a member who did his DSC1 with I think NGO, and was awarded a credit card sized plastic certificate with his details, which seemed a slightly better solution.

Once awarded there does not seem to be any mechanism for tracing the hunter. I am not required to keep DMQ updated with any change of address, phone number, email details etc. In fact I would not know how to do so, even if I wanted to.

Even if I provided a butcher, pub, restaurant etc. with a copy of my certificate, for their records, there is no information on it which would show how my identity could be verified, e.g. a 'phone number to call where my registration details could be checked.

The deer tag format does not provide any backwards traceability information, e.g. there is no requirement for a unique serial number that links the tag with my cull records, that is if I keep any at-all. Neither is there any contact information required, e.g. postcode.

Anybody could impersonate me and fill out a fraudulent tag with my details, once they have sight of my Hunter Number, indeed I have heard of exactly this happening.

To be credible there needs to be:

1) An online database of all trained hunters, who should be required to verify their contact details at least annually, otherwise registration is suspended until done.

2) Database to be searchable by anyone who wishes, i.e. enter surname, initials, postcode, hunter number. Search results to state whether hunter is currently registered or not. A hunter would only provide these details to a potential customer, if asked. Otherwise the system I propose for the tag would be sufficient to confirm the hunter is genuine, in anonymity.

3) Database to be securely accessible by each trained hunter, who can be issued a block of unique tag serial codes. Hunter to write one such code on each tag. When tag is attached to deer, hunter required to register that the tag code has been issued, including date. Tag code registration to be made as simple as possible, e.g. by text message, email etc.

4) Database to be searchable by anyone who wishes, e.g. customers. Enter hunter number, tag code, tag date. Search results to state whether tag is valid, hunter is currently registered, and to issue a verification code confirming the check has been made. Search to be as simple as possible, e.g. website, text message, email etc.

5) Database to be searchable by approved authorities. Enter tag code, verification code, date of verification. Result to confirm that verification was done when stated. Approved authorities also able to access contact details of the hunter who issued the tag.

6) Severe penalties for any pub, butcher AGHE etc. found in possession of untagged carcasses, or selling processed venison without traceability back to a valid tag, and a record of a verification code having been obtained.

Without some sort of system like this, I think that deer tags are barely worth the paper they are printed on, e.g. 10p each from the BDS, or less if you make your own.


+1
 
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