Farmers/landowners ignoring stalking lease agreements

Erik Hamburger

Well-Known Member
Last year I was confronted with a situation where I found out the landowner on one of my permissions had sold the sole stalking rights to another person without telling me (I didn't have to pay), and without telling the other person, and as a result we have both been stalking the same ground happily for over a year, until the inevitable meeting/confrontation when we bumped into each other one evening. I pulled out of this permission as I felt I couldn't trust the landowner any more, in particular thinking about the safety issues.

I now work together as an amateur stalker with a professional who holds the stalking rights on another farm. The prof. has been on this ground for 10+ years and has heavily invested in time and money (high-seats, rides, etc. etc.). The prof. doesn't pay for the stalking rights but makes his money selling the venison from this and other permissions. Once again we find ourselves in a situation where the farmer/landowner has given permission to a third party to shoot/stalk the land, this is a neighbour with a nice garden who is upset that the deer have destroyed his orchard, this guy has now done the DSC1 and is in the process of getting a FAC and rifle. Currently he shoots Muntjac with a shotgun (hmm) and he has asked me if I would please shoot any badgers near his property. Yes, really. So far for the knowledge picked up from doing the DSC1 ;)

The farmer/landowner is a very kind gentleman who can't say 'No' easily but obviously hasn't quite considered the implications of his kindness. Implications for someone making his living, and safety implications. It looks as if the landowner just wants the deer controlled, by anybody, and never mind if there are two or three rifles on the ground at the same time, who may not know about each others presence.

I have not been shooting or stalking for that long so you could say I am relatively inexperienced, but the more people I meet in Stalking the more horror stories similar to this I hear, and the more I learn about how much bad practice, backstabbing, cheating, lying and betraying is rife within the stalking world. Many shooting/stalking agreements are simply sealed with a handshake, but even when there are written stalking leases in place we cannot really trust our landowners/farmers any more, sad but true.

I cannot see a solution to these issues - after all there is little point in threatening a landowner that you will take Legal action, as it would be a quick route to loosing your permission altogether. Where do we stand..is there a constructive solution?
 
If you don't pay for the rights you have no chance , cash talks these days I'm afraid
 
if you wished to be a bit of a grass ? you could tape the chap requesting you shoot the brock's and that would put a hold on him getting a cert, not nice but !!,
i lost my small bit of Essex due to cash greedy land owner :doh:
 
Unless you have a binding contract the landowner has every right to let anyone he likes on his land and your pal has been a lucky boy to make money with no outlay.If it means that much to both of you make the land owner an offer, usually money talks, for the shooting rights but make sure a,binding contract is made. If time and effort has been put in already try for a long term lease. What would you think if someone was making money from your investment for no return?
 
The landowner is just that . He owns the land. If we are fortunate to stalk the land for free inevitably one day money will come into the equation . It's only a matter of time . I believe it's best to offer all landowners something even if its a token gesture . I'm afraid that just because stalker bloggs has managed the land for a few years it doesn't entitle him to rights for life if stalker b comes along with a plate full of bangers and mash .
​Atb Steve
 
fully agree sf, but the land owner should give you the heads up that he wishes to get a fee and then you may stand a chance to talk to the others and get part of the pie not just the washing up. in my case i was giving free help around the land, but i still got shafted by all involved cash is king.
 
It can also be a problem when the farmer is not the land owner,I had one small patch where this was the case.
I had and still do stalk most of this farmers land, but years later I was confronted by another stalker sitting in one of my high seats.
When questioned he replied that the owner had given him permission to shoot this one field, I asked my farmer who phoned the land owner,
he was told that he had indeed given permission, and that he could not now stop him from shooting.( or didn't want to )
The solution to the problem was quite easy, I phoned the owner if I wanted to shoot this particular field and likewise the other stalker.
Any sort of animal control went straight out the window, the other stalker shot everything on sight.
 
How would the land owner stand under health & safety legislation and vicarious liability? If for example you have a couple of people stalking at the same time, both with the land owners permission but unaware of each others presence, both believing you are the only one permitted with a firearm, then the inevitable happens (god forbid). I know ultimately it's down to the person pulling the trigger but the land owner could be said to have created that situation. Just my thoughts on the subject and why even on permissions I don't pay for I have a letter of permission and indemnity, detailing any special measures for that land agreed by the land owner/farmer and myself
Wingy
 
The landowner is just that . He owns the land. If we are fortunate to stalk the land for free inevitably one day money will come into the equation . It's only a matter of time . I believe it's best to offer all landowners something even if its a token gesture . I'm afraid that just because stalker bloggs has managed the land for a few years it doesn't entitle him to rights for life if stalker b comes along with a plate full of bangers and mash .
​Atb Steve

+1

From the other side of the fence I would agree. Some people can get very complacent about using other people's land, particularly if arrangements have been in place for some years. It can get up the landowner's nose when the Stalker refers to it as his land. Best advice is to keep the Landowner sweet and do not be a stranger.
 
In theory there would be no health and safety issue over and above that which is already there.
all shots must be to a safe backstop with clear view of the path to the bs. As a shooter you will always be wholly responsible for the legal fall out if the shizzle hits the fan, even if someone gets in the way of a bullet as a result of being where they should not.
 
With the estate I had the sporting rights on it was down to myself to arrange anyone with shotguns or firearms on the land. Other land that I had permission on was on a pheasant shoot again I was the only one with permission for Firearms. But again as i have already wrote proper contracts were in place as with the land in Scotland I shoot and that way it can be managed by the person,persons who have the sole shooting rights. It is much different if you are just walking about with a shotgun or an airrifle.
 
Im not sure how you can have a stalking lease agreement when nothing has changed hands.Surely what you have is permission to shot on the ground or am I missing something??If you just have permission then the landowner can please himself who he says yay to and just count yourself lucky that you also have permission.
 
Most stalkers should never be complacent about the land they stalk, checking periodically with the farmer and land owner that everything is okay,
but every farmer is not a land owner and if you are not aware of this, then problems can occur. The only problem I can foresee is when you ask your farmer if he owns the land, be prepared for some backlash or lost shooting.
 
I think if you have shooting go out and shoot deer . You may not have it next season. Once landowners know how much money guides are charging per outing and how much a carcass sells for and how many 'stalkers' are passing dsc1 with bds and basc and the likes there won't be much free stalking left
atb Steve
 
The land owner is just that. He can do what he likes, invite who he likes with regards to the hunting rights. Unless you are paying and have a contract, tough titty.
Of course the deer stalking world is full of liers, rouges, back stabbers etc,etc. Why do people think because someone has a rifle and stalks they are a upright, honest person. Sånt är livet.
 
You may only shoot deer with the explicit permission of the owner or lessee of the sporting rights. Preferably in a written contract/letter of permission.

If the farmer owns the land, they probably own the sporting rights. However if they are a tenant or otherwise lease the land, they may well not.

In which case they still have the right to shoot vermin on their land, or allow one other person to do so, but they will not be allowed to shoot deer or other quarry, or give permission to anyone else, nevermind sell such permission, unless they also have the sporting rights.

Even if they have permission, it may not be exclusive and the actual owner of the sporting rights is free to make whatever arrangements they wish with others.

It is not unusual for farms and other land to be sold (e.g. to hobby farmers) but the sporting rights retained by the original owner, which can create interesting situations.

It is a particular concern for those of us who pay for our (guided) stalking and have to trust that our guide has secured the permission needed, not just for themself, but also their clients.

See http://www.countrylife.co.uk/blogs/...Know-Buying-property-and-sporting-rights.html
 
be very careful guys there is alot of tenent farmers out there and 99% of tenent farmers do not own the shooting right (fact), so they can not give permission to shoot bugger all.
 
The land next to one of my permissions was let to a recreational stalker for big money , he used to shoot one or two big fallow bucks on there a year ,never bothered at all with the does ,in fact end of the rut was the end of the stalking year as far as he was concerned . This all went well with the farmer for a few years until the damage done to crops , fences , neighbours property far out weighed the money received . I know stalk his land as well (he rang me) on one condition ..... I SHOOT THE DEER...if you have free stalking or you pay make sure you actually get out and do it ..
 
crappy situation but surely the best solution is to enter into some form of contract for stalking the ground whether it be cash based or exchange of goods(venison) or service (clearing ground/firewood ect ) as a form of " peppercorn rent" It doesn't stop you losing the shooting but regular contact and good relations with the owner of the shooting rights will go a long way to keeping it. Drifting in at dawn and dusk now and again unseen by the owner of the rights he/she may rightly think no ones doing anything especially if neighbours or tenants are complaining.
 
Deer stalking is unfortunately becoming more and more cut throat. When there's money involved more and more so called friendships are ending in tears. Just caught out my lease holder showing another rifle around the syndicate ground. He has also stuck two more rifles into another syndicate without the current members even being told that they are in, and more worryingly this means they don't have their mobile or phone numbers. Also been told that he takes paying guests out on both. but couldn't catch the bas****.
 
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