reason for 1-for-1 variation

Mungo

Well-Known Member
Out of curiosity, has anyone had to justify a one-for-one variation?

I had to spend about 15 mins of the phone explaining my logic, in the face of some fairly trenchant scepticism. It seemed that 'the rifle I got first time round was not what I wanted in terms of accuracy and function and I would like to get a better one' wasn't regarded as a particularly good reason.

The system seems predisposed to obstruction, inefficiency and needless delay. Could anyone explain why we need to get authority to replace a rifle once granted the authority to posess one in that calibre? It makes no sense.
 
Never had to give any reason other than "deer stalking + fox control" during variation
 
Out of curiosity, has anyone had to justify a one-for-one variation?

I had to spend about 15 mins of the phone explaining my logic, in the face of some fairly trenchant scepticism. It seemed that 'the rifle I got first time round was not what I wanted in terms of accuracy and function and I would like to get a better one' wasn't regarded as a particularly good reason.

The system seems predisposed to obstruction, inefficiency and needless delay. Could anyone explain why we need to get authority to replace a rifle once granted the authority to posess one in that calibre? It makes no sense.

Mungo

I haven't come across this before.
In the past I have just sold a rifle, notified the FA Team asking them to keep the slot open got my FAC back and repurchased in the same calibre using the open slot and notified the FA Team again. It's a cumbersome and unnecessarily bureaucratic process in my view but I've not faced any questioning. Is that what you did or did you do something different? I'm curious
 
Mungo

I may have got the wrong end of the stick. Replacing a rifle in the same calibre isn't a Variation. I'm not clear on what you've done. Can you explain?
 
I would guess their reluctance is down to an attempt at reducing costs.

they have to process and issue a new certificate. That will incur admin and stationary costs. Given the current drive in Police Scotland to save millions of pounds I'm guessing even a few quid here and there eventually adds up to a reasonable figure. Let's be honest, the current firearms licensing system is antiquated at best and will always cost the police endless expense until we see a system like chip and pin and a computerised link between the FAC holder, the RFD and the police...

Only reason really for questions would be if the chambering your looking at is questionable for the purpose it's intended for...
 
I phoned them up to ask what the appropriate course of action was (I had not done a 1-for-1 before). They said to send in my FAC and an application for a variation BEFORE disposing of the existing rifle. They would then add a condition to the cert stating that I had the authority to obtain a new .308 once the current one was gone.

So filled in the application and sent it all off.

Two weeks later (!) I finally phoned to find out what was going on, and got passed on to the enquiry officer. He then grilled me about why I wanted to do this, and was rather sceptical about it. The exact question was 'well, you've only had this one for 5 months - why do you need to change it?'. And was grudging about accepting that 'poorer performace than expected' as an answer. He wanted to know who I'd be selling my existing rifle to, and why they would take it if it wasn't good enough for me. I'm pretty certain that these are not questions he's entitled to ask.
 
Only reason really for questions would be if the chambering your looking at is questionable for the purpose it's intended for...

I could understand that. But .308 for roe, red and fallow? When I already have authority to possess one, based on a thorough investigation the last time round?
 
the current firearms licensing system is antiquated at best and will always cost the police endless expense until we see a system like chip and pin and a computerised link between the FAC holder, the RFD and the police...

Now wouldn't that be lovely!

Walk into RFD. Swipe card. Current status pops up on screen. Sell rifle. RFD taps in details. Status updated. Buy new rifle. RFD taps in details. Swipe card again. Walk out.

If farm shops in the middle of nowhere can manage a web based ordering system with a loyalty card and secure online payment, there is no earthly reason why they can't do this for FACs. Antediluvian, knuckle dragging, chin dribbling dinosaurs.
 
Just being tricky I believe, they want to save money/cut workload and not encourage use to own firearms.
 
It beggars belief that these FEOs don't know that the British FAC system prevents you to being able to "try before you buy".

And, that as I did, if you get a "lemon" that can it takes weeks or months before you decide it isn't a faulty 'scope, loose 'scope mountings, poor bedding, too slow/too fast handloads that are causing the problem but something fundamental the rifle itself.

A gun shop isn't like "American Golf" warehouse or a club's "pro-shop" where you can send down a few shots before you decide to buy or not!

And that as the RFD can't try before he/she buys neither can they nor, either, if you put the thing for sale via an RFD with an auction house.

And the bottom line? Well if it isn't new the reason that it was up for sale was that previous owner may also have had the same issues with it too!

Like Sherlock Holmes you have to eliminate all the other possibilities until the only one that remains, no matter how implausible, is the only solution. That it isn't your input that is the reason for its poor performance but the rifle itself!

I had one rifle that I took to the range ten or twenty times, different loads, replacement 'scope, etc., etc., until finally admitting that it had to go.
 
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.... Two weeks later (!) I finally phoned to find out what was going on, and got passed on to the enquiry officer. He then grilled me about why I wanted to do this, and was rather sceptical about it. The exact question was 'well, you've only had this one for 5 months - why do you need to change it?'. And was grudging about accepting that 'poorer performace than expected' as an answer. He wanted to know who I'd be selling my existing rifle to, and why they would take it if it wasn't good enough for me. I'm pretty certain that these are not questions he's entitled to ask.

Reminds me of the argument sketch on Monty Python...



Seriously, that doesn't sound good.
L & B have always been pretty good about that sort of thing, wonder if they are now getting pressure from the new system.
 
Rather than a policy shift it sounds more like a new FEO flexing his muscles. Completely unnecessary and a waste of your time and emotion.
I'd be inclined to have a word with the FEOs supervisor were that me, that being said I am in a different place relationship wise with the current staff at my licensing dept. ;)
 
Not sure I get this
so you essentially want a better rifle in the same calibre?
quite frankly it is none of his business why unless he is questioning your original need or for some reason suspects you are no longer a suitable person to own a firearm

"I own a 308, I want to sell it and buy a different one" that's it!!
you don't need a one for one before you sell either, ask for it at the same time as you notify the sale

unless your one for one is .308 to .50 cal I am really struggling to understand the thought process.

Am afraid if this was with me there would be an official complaint to the Chief Superintendent on the grounds of gross misconduct and dereliction of duty
They are there to administrate. the rules are simple, not for interpretation.

I bought a full bore moderator and sold it the very next day and asked for a one for one. none of their business why I sold it. It is mine to sell
 
I phoned them up to ask what the appropriate course of action was (I had not done a 1-for-1 before). They said to send in my FAC and an application for a variation BEFORE disposing of the existing rifle. They would then add a condition to the cert stating that I had the authority to obtain a new .308 once the current one was gone.

So filled in the application and sent it all off.

Two weeks later (!) I finally phoned to find out what was going on, and got passed on to the enquiry officer. He then grilled me about why I wanted to do this, and was rather sceptical about it. The exact question was 'well, you've only had this one for 5 months - why do you need to change it?'. And was grudging about accepting that 'poorer performace than expected' as an answer. He wanted to know who I'd be selling my existing rifle to, and why they would take it if it wasn't good enough for me. I'm pretty certain that these are not questions he's entitled to ask.


Your second post makes the situation clearer. A 1-for-1 is a replacement of one rifle for another of exactly the same calibre (i.e. .243 sold - authority for another .243). If you change it to some other calibe/cartridge then it's different .... it's no longer a ' 1-for-1 ' but a ' one-on .... one-off ' which you may be asked to justify.

If you wanted to hang on to the unwanted .243 for a short while until you part-exchanged it for a new .243 then you should have been issued with an extra temporary permit for the old one.That's to justify a temporary increase (as you've got authority for only 1 - not 2 on your current FAC).


It's not usual to have to justify a 1-for-1 (replacement) as that's usually a back-of-office issue which doesn't need FEO involvement. The FLD is entitled to enquire at any point whether your original justification continues, and is still valid. If it is, you're then issued with a fresh FAC (without the old .243) with authority to buy ONE .243 ...... which the FLD Manager or stand-in still has to sign. That's the position in my area, but they do know what they're doing ... I'm not sure about the new SPS Licensing.
 
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Your second post makes the situation clearer. A 1-for-1 is a replacement of one rifle for another of exactly the same calibre (i.e. .243 sold - authority for another .243).

Yes - I know this. I have a .308. I want a nicer one. End of.

Or so I thought...

The bit that is particularly confusing is that they told me I had to apply for the authorisation to get a replacement BEFORE getting rid of the current one. It turns out that this is not normal.

Why on earth can they not be consistent with administering their own procedures? Why do you get different advice every time to you talk to someone?
 
Yes - I know this. I have a .308. I want a nicer one. End of.

Or so I thought...

The bit that is particularly confusing is that they told me I had to apply for the authorisation to get a replacement BEFORE getting rid of the current one. It turns out that this is not normal.

Why on earth can they not be consistent with administering their own procedures? Why do you get different advice every time to you talk to someone?

I suspect that the person asking all the irrelevant questions may be new to the role and does not understand what a 1 for 1 (like for like) variation means and the proper process.

The advice to apply for the variation prior to disposing of your rifle makes no sense as it would mean an additional firearm and thus incur a fee.

The process is normally dispose of your rifle, get a receipt, notify disposal and apply for authority to acquire another rifle. It should be almost automatic to grant.

If the person you have been dealing with is not challenged, then he/she will not learn and continue as at present.

A call to the licensing manager or an e-mail should put matters right. If that does not work then it is time to involve your shooting organisation and consider talking to the professional standard unit of your police force.
 
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I phoned them up to ask what the appropriate course of action was (I had not done a 1-for-1 before). They said to send in my FAC and an application for a variation BEFORE disposing of the existing rifle. They would then add a condition to the cert stating that I had the authority to obtain a new .308 once the current one was gone.

So filled in the application and sent it all off.

Two weeks later (!) I finally phoned to find out what was going on, and got passed on to the enquiry officer. He then grilled me about why I wanted to do this, and was rather sceptical about it. The exact question was 'well, you've only had this one for 5 months - why do you need to change it?'. And was grudging about accepting that 'poorer performace than expected' as an answer. He wanted to know who I'd be selling my existing rifle to, and why they would take it if it wasn't good enough for me. I'm pretty certain that these are not questions he's entitled to ask.

Mungo, this sort of thing does irritate me. This is THEIR system and you have done nothing wrong. In future, just sell the rifle and ask them to keep the slot open and use the same 'good reason' you did when applying "Deer and AOLQ' or similar. Then buy the one you want. It doesn't matter whether you own the rifle for 5 months, 5 weeks or even 5 hours! If you don't like it sell it and there is nothing stopping you doing so and repeating the exercise again and again if you wish. You can sell your rifle whenever, wherever and to whoever you want PROVIDED the purchaser is legally entitled to buy it. There's nothing stopping them asking irrelevant questions by the way. but you should put yourself in a situation where they don't need to do so. I found I got and get a lot of help from my Gun Club, might be worth you considering joining one, but in future do ask on this site before you ask them. Best of luck with it.
 
Out of curiosity, has anyone had to justify a one-for-one variation?

I had to spend about 15 mins of the phone explaining my logic, in the face of some fairly trenchant scepticism. It seemed that 'the rifle I got first time round was not what I wanted in terms of accuracy and function and I would like to get a better one' wasn't regarded as a particularly good reason.

The system seems predisposed to obstruction, inefficiency and needless delay. Could anyone explain why we need to get authority to replace a rifle once granted the authority to posess one in that calibre? It makes no sense.

YES! what is up with Edinburgh lately? I had to spend ages justifying a 1:1 too. sold one, and struggled convincing them I needed to re-fill the slot with another/new rifle..

WTF...

let's be honest, a few years and we'll probably not be allowed firearms at all...then to control deer numbers they'll need to legalise bow hunting! LOL
 
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