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Thread: Legal basis for recording bullet heads on your FAC: Advice p

  1. #1

    Legal basis for recording bullet heads on your FAC: Advice p

    Dear All,

    Please could somebody provide clarrification on the requirement to enter bullet heads on your FAC.

    I reload and use both match and hunting/varmit bullets and am currently awaiting visit from a new FEO (Avon and Somerset) to inspect my new house/cabinet/security and to sort out application for new C/F (.243).

    It seems there is a requirement to enter expanding bullets on your ticket but ? not non expanding.

    With this in mind have asked foe sizable increase in expanding bullet heads as will be experimenting when I get .243.

    Clarrification on exact legal requirement would be very helpfull.


  2. #2
    firstly there is no such thing as a bullet head it's a bullet!

    The head of a cartridge is where the primer pocket is located and where the cartridge case is marked with the "Headstamp" and is why we have "headspace" which is the gap between the breechface and the head of the cartridge .

    Heads is an Americanism that the Police use because their bible on cartridges is:-

    Cartridges of the World

    Now as to expanding bullets and ammunition there seems to be no sense to the application of the law and rules. Each force seems to have it's own ideas and agendas. For instance a .45" cal flat point bullet loaded for a Marlin 1894 is not classed as expanding as due to the tubular magazine design not be able to use pointed bullets safely the "Police view" is the soft lead exposed flat tip is for safety and not to make them expand.

    Load the same cartidge into a rifle with a box magazine without having expanding ammunition on your ticket and your busted

    I have only just managed to get the Licensing folks to understand that you cannot practice with Non-expanding Match or FMJ's then switch to soft points without re-zeroing. They thought you just changed the bullet type and they all shot the same They are not shooters in the most part just office wallers and plain old Civil servants that are not so civil

    I heard of one county that doesn't require the entering of expanding ammunition and when they grant a rilfe variation is normally just says Full bore CF rifle trouble is dealers used to other counties often query this. Oh wouldn't it be nice if the law and rules were applied properly and evenly everywhere but then that gives no chance for empire building does it .

    Your better off contacting your representive shooting body and getting their opinion .

  3. #3
    There is NO legal requirement to enter expanding bullets on your FAC.

    I recently attempted to buy 1000 expanding 243 from an RFD and he wanted to enter them on my FAC. This is an RFD that I have used for the last 15+ years. I had also bought 500 expanding 308 bullets from him a week earlier and they were not entered on my FAC.

    I told him he wasn't writing anything on the FAC, though he could check it to make sure I was still allowed to buy/possess the bullets. He stated that "they" now wanted expanding bullets entering on the FAC. "They" being the local firearms dept.
    He was told, in no uncertain terms, to shove said bullets as far up his A-hole as he could get them. A small loss to him of around £300

    A trip to another RFD, who comes under the same dept, secured the bullets without them being entered on my FAC. When asked about the "new rule" he laughed and said he would never enter bullets on to an FAC until the Law insisted that he does it, rather than one rougue FEO at the local dept!

    Guess which RFD will now get ALL my business!

  4. #4
    Taken from the Home Office Firearms Guidance

    2.9 “Ammunition” means ammunition for
    any firearm and includes grenades, bombs
    and other like missiles whether capable of
    use with a firearm or not, and also includes
    prohibited ammunition. It will be noted
    that the definition of ammunition does
    not include ingredients and components
    of ammunition; it is only assembled
    ammunition that is controlled under the
    Act, not component parts. Empty cartridge
    cases, for example, are not “ammunition”.
    The only exception to this is the missiles for
    ammunition prohibited under section 5 of the
    1968 Act, for example expanding or armourpiercing
    bullets. Such missiles are themselves
    regarded as “ammunition” and are subject to
    contol accordingly

    Now that is what the book says!!
    But I have as Brithunter has stated heard that some Police authorities follow the guidance and some don't.
    Have bought section 5's at different dealers some put them straight on your ticket some do not.
    As has been said ring your FEO get it from the horses mouth, I personally stay under my 250 round limit. This I do by counting bullets and assembled rounds,
    box of 50 129 grain bullets
    box of 40 140 grain bullets

    Would mean I would not want to have more than
    160 assembled rounds in section 5 expanding

    As for non expanding ie FMJ they do not count against your allocation until you assemble them, you can go out and bulk buy 1000 150 grain FMJ's for example with not problem
    I personally stay to what the guidance says there should be no grey area then

  5. #5
    Manc-Munsters has it right.

    There is NO legal requirement to enter expanding bullets on your FAC.

    Does anyone really think that all those RFDs who are selling us expanding bullets but not entering them onto our FACs would put themselves at risk of prosecution? Those that do are simply kowtowing to whatever the latest party line from their police firearms department is. If you accept that situation it will only get worse so vote with your feet.

    As has been pointed out the relevant HO guidance quoted states:

    The only exception to this is the missiles for
    ammunition prohibited under section 5 of the
    1968 Act, for example expanding or armour piercing
    bullets. Such missiles are themselves
    regarded as “ammunition” and are subject to
    control accordingly

    Note the phrase "subject to control" as that is the key. They are controlled by reason of the Firearms Act defining them as prohibited and we have authority, (call it a blanket authority if you want), to possess them by reason of the general condition that is entered on our FAC. That is the control that is in place - it does not mention that they must be recorded or entered onto the FAC. This is yet another example of the ragtag bits of legislation that have been foisted on us - in this case rushed through because they 'forgot' that sporting rifles use expanding ammo when they did the last knee jerk ban.

    Cyres, has this all come about because of what your FEO has told you? If so I wouldn't be suprised given that many of them have little idea about the correct adminstration of the Act and prefer to make up their own interpretations. For that reason I can see no merit in contacting the FEO for 'advice', if he is already going down this route do you think he will be an impartial source of information?

    The idiot that visited me wanted me to enter all of my assembled handloads onto my FAC. I politely declined pointing out that I would not be selling them to myself and as the FAC would already authorise me to possess X amount of rounds, I would be complying with the Act. It was then suggested that they wouldn't be able to renew my certificate when the time came because they wouldn't be able to see that I had been using my firearms. To get around this problem for them it was further suggested that I retain receipts for the bullets I purchased and present them at renewal! Yeah right .

    You should not have to list complete rounds and separate bullets in your quantities to purchase or possess. It should only be neccesary for your Licensing Dept to increase the overall quantity of ammunition on your FAC to reflect the fact that you will need to keep stock of both and avoid inconvenience when you replenish - 500 total possessed has a nice ring to it, and how can they refuse - the HO Guidance quoted above quite clearly states that the bullets themselves are 'ammunition'.

    I've always found that the best way of dealing with this kind of situation is to politely ask for the justification behind any decision that I disagree with. If the answer makes no sense or is at variance with what I know to be right, then I ask to be shown the relevant legislation or request it in writing.

    Good luck!

  6. #6
    You could always download the Home Office Guidance to Police and have it open when the FEO comes around.
    When told you have to have expanding bullets on your certificate, pass him the laptop and ask him to point out where it says that in the guidance


    Just rung my FD and asked the question. Their answer was that they have "requested" that some RFD's start to record where the expanding bullets are going.
    By this, I suspect they are keeping an eye on the RFD rather than the end user

  7. #7
    I know from asking my FEO the question about expandind bullets that she is not interested in componants eg bullets only assembled rounds.
    Thats ok but I still stay under my allocation just in case one day it is not her that calls to see me and I end up with Mr/Mrs Anal.

    As to entering these assembled rounds on to your own ticket, I for one do not. Think this was covered in a thread a while back?

    Oh well she is here on Saturday with my FAC with my variations on.
    Talked to her yesterday and as far as I am aware they have let me have what I asked for Happy days.

  8. #8
    If you demand their reasoning in writing ......................... don't hold your breathe as you won't get it ............... Simples

    I am still waiting the reason in writing I demanded 4 years ago.

    Nearly 18 months ago we had a meeting here at home with the Licensing officer and her deputy, they were not too chuffed to be met by one of the HBSA council and after repeatedly making uncalled for and even illegal demands they were asked to show in the books, Guidence to police, Firearms acts etc, their repsonse was to get up and leave.

    They will not change their ways not matter what.

    I have been tryig to get them to get the makes and serial numbers correct since moving to Lincolnshire but to no avail. A rifle I acquired a couple of months ago they got the make right as it's a common one being a BSA but they managed to turn a "2" into a "Z" in the serial number

    As for handloading I keep records of all my loading ...................... for my benefit. The Police have never seen them and unless there is a change in the law they never will either .

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by manc-munsters
    Just rung my FD and asked the question. Their answer was that they have "requested" that some RFD's start to record where the expanding bullets are going.
    By this, I suspect they are keeping an eye on the RFD rather than the end user
    That's a good one!

    Recording where they are going is one thing but are the RFDs then taking it a step further and trying to enter the bullets on their customer's FACs on their own initiative? Or maybe plod 'suggested' or 'requested' that it would be prudent to do it?

  10. #10
    Thanks to you all for the advice.

    The issue is that my FEO has just retired and no named replacement. I have moved house and put in for a varriation at same time.

    Avon and Somerset Cons appear extermely gun unfriendly and appear to have some what different interpretation of the law and its application.

    I have purchased bullets (heads) throughout the country and some do and some don't put heads (their description) on my ticket. Border Gun room at Roxburgh put A max on it even though they are target bullets! Norman Clarke put on expanding but not non expanding.

    What is causing me grief is when I completed my paperwork for the variation it required me to list the ammunition I hold at that time.

    I have taken this to mean assembled rounds.

    Does the law require me to declare the ammount of expanding bullet heads I hold?

    Clearly as an active reloader, and as you buy heads in boxes of 100 a couple of boxes of 100 would put me over my permisible limit.

    Should I ask my FEO to list on my ticket the ammount of expanding bullet heads I can buy/hold, cause its never been on there before.

    I know I am being a bit anal here but it is very important and will effect anybody who reloads. I wish to be legal but do not want to have the wool pulled over my eyes by a FE0/ CONSTABULARY who are trying to impliment their own rules.


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