Fiocchi factory load over filled

charlieboy-shooter

Well-Known Member
Hi,

Not sure if this should be in this section.

Any one had any dealings with overcharged factory load. I fired a 100gr .243win Fiocchi factory load and was surprised at the recoil. Upon attempting to lift the bolt and having never fired a overpressure cartridge I was suprised at how difficult it was to lift the bolt. Upon inspection of the case the primier had a black ring around it and the case base from the bolt extractor was shiny and the bolt face has some slithers of brass. I checked the rest of the cartridges and found that when shaking another 2 were so overcharged that unlike the others I could not hear the powder rattle in the cartridge and the weight difference was noticeable.

I now regret taking the rest of the cartridges straight back to the shop but as I'm off on a paid stalk soon I need some cartridges. The guy at the shop tried to phone the Fiocchi rep but had no joy.

Could the over pressure have damaged the gun and should I get it checked. I also checked the bolt and on the face around the firing pin is a black ring, which I can't say for sure, if it was there before or not. I gave it a wipe with cleaner and black ring remained. I have a friend with a Browning A bolt who I have asked to check his.

I will be contacting Fiocchi 1st thing Monday.

Gratful for your view.

Thanks
 
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Hi,

I have a friend with a Browning A bolt who I have asked to check his.

If your talking about the little primer sized ring around the firing pin hole in the bolt face ?
My .223 A-bolt is the same (from new), the X-Bolt I used to have was as well.

Neil. :)
 
Hi Neil,

Yes thats exactly what I mean. Funny how I've cleaned and looked lots of time but never noticed. Didn't Sherlock say something like that " Watson you see but do not observe".

Thanks

Steve
 
"I checked the rest of the cartridges and found that when shaking another 2 were so overcharged that unlike the others I could not hear the powder rattle in the cartridge and the weight difference was noticeable."

Hardly scientific Charlie. Short of pulling the bullets and weighing the charges there is no way of telling for certain that too large a powder charge is present in a case. Even weighing the complete round will only be a guide as you can't be certain that the bullet is the same weight. There are other possible reasons for a stiff bolt lift and extraction so it's best not to jump to conclusions but if you did suspect the ammo perhaps it would have been better not to have fired any more rounds.
 
Steve if you want to pop round tomorrow and accurately weigh the rounds you have left feel free to call me.

Neil. :)
 
"I checked the rest of the cartridges and found that when shaking another 2 were so overcharged that unlike the others I could not hear the powder rattle in the cartridge and the weight difference was noticeable."

Hardly scientific Charlie. Short of pulling the bullets and weighing the charges there is no way of telling for certain that too large a powder charge is present in a case. Even weighing the complete round will only be a guide as you can't be certain that the bullet is the same weight. There are other possible reasons for a stiff bolt lift and extraction so it's best not to jump to conclusions but if you did suspect the ammo perhaps it would have been better not to have fired any more rounds.

I totally agree, not very scientific. But when you shake 16 cartridges and 14 of them you can hear the powder rattle inside and 2 have absolutely no sound as they are either empty or completely full and I don't think just a prmier going off would have caused such a recoil. But Yes I wish I had kept them and pulled one which you could hear the powder noticabley rattle inside ( I have used these in past and found that the seems to be a fair bit of space in the case) and pulled one of the others. I have no doubt they are over charged, as I stated after the event you could notice the difference when handling the cartrigde, the guy even in the shop mentioned that without any prompting from me. The COL looked the same too, I know not very scentific either but there was not a visually noticlable seating depth variation. Hopefully Fiocchi will have some answer. .
 
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Thanks Neil, but I took them straight back to the shop which is only a few miles away from the range as I'm supposed to be going Stalking next week (Muntjac) and I wanted to get the rifle sorted for heavier SP & not the 58gr Vmax I have been using.


Steve if you want to pop round tomorrow and accurately weigh the rounds you have left feel free to call me.

Neil. :)
 
Might be a long shot but the shop has probably still got them. If you are still pondering it, you might be able to buy two of them back, as it's now a part box, and measure the powder. It would be interesting to know what the outcome is if you do. I use the Fiocchi .22's in my CZ and found them grouping tighter than the Winnies.
 
Might be a long shot but the shop has probably still got them. If you are still pondering it, you might be able to buy two of them back, as it's now a part box, and measure the powder. It would be interesting to know what the outcome is if you do. I use the Fiocchi .22's in my CZ and found them grouping tighter than the Winnies.

I have got all the cartridges back. The 2 suspect ones weigh exactly 100 grains more than the 14 other ones. Bearing in mind it was a 100Gr bullet I suspect that these one have 2 bullets set in the one case. God only knows what that has done to the bore. The cartridges are being sent to the proofing house for independent testing.

I'm probably going to post in gun smith section on any help / guidance on getting bore checked.
 
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I have got all the cartridges back. The 2 suspect ones weigh exactly 100 grains more than the 14 other ones. Bearing in mind it was a 100Gr bullet I suspect that these one have 2 bullets set in the one case. God only knows what that has done to the bore. The cartridges are being sent to the proofing house for independent testing.

I'm probably going to post in gun smith section on any help / guidance on getting bore checked.

I can not write what words were just expelled! Glad you are still with us.
 
I have got all the cartridges back. The 2 suspect ones weigh exactly 100 grains more than the 14 other ones. Bearing in mind it was a 100Gr bullet I suspect that these one have 2 bullets set in the one case. God only knows what that has done to the bore. The cartridges are being sent to the proofing house for independent testing.

I'm probably going to post in gun smith section on any help / guidance on getting bore checked.

Fiocchi only list a 95-grain load for .243 on their website BTW:-

http://www.fiocchiuk.com/site/index.php?pag=792&linea=22&titolo_prod=Rifle&prod=290

What you're saying is that the two suspect cartridges have a bullet embedded within the body of the case (in addition to the one already crimped in the neck). You can't say for sure because these rounds are still intact .... you haven't pulled them?

The Fiocchi .243 case weighs >= 170 grains. A live primer weighs 5 grains. A 'typical' ballpowder charge would be 40 grains. Add a 95 grain bullet to the foregoing & you'd have an overall weight of 310 grains for a live .243 round.

If another 95 grain bullet had already been forced down into the case (before any powder was added) then it presumably wouldn't be possible to get the typical 40-gr charge in. Let's work on the hypothesis that a half-charge of 20 grains could be dropped in (with much spillage of course) and the loading cycle completed by adding another 95-grain bullet...... assuming the neck-tension was enough to hold it.

The round would then weigh 385 grains ..... so 75 grains heavier, and about 25% over typical weight. You would think that quality control at the factory would spot a variation of that magnitude?

I've no idea what the effect of firing a half-charge (squib load) would be within the reduced confines of the case. The pressure might be high enough to get the bullet in the neck down the rifling and exit the muzzle, but I doubt whether the 2nd bullet could make the same journey.

Interesting problem though. I haven't really a clue what the likely effects might be of double loading of bullets if this could happen.
 
Having weighed these rounds myself I can state the normal ones weighed 315 grains as an average, the heavy 415 and 415.2
Other than the weight the round look normal and bullet appears to be properly seated, no distorsion of the case, or damage to the mouth/neck.
There was a re-call Fiocchi Issues Warning and Recall for 22-250 and .243 Win Ammo Daily Bulletin

Neil. :)

Thanks, Neil.

Here's a direct link to the FIOCCHI USA site Recall Notice. The secondary link on 6mmBR.COM is dead as this recall was dated September 2012.

http://www.fiocchiusa.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&layout=blog&id=101&Itemid=222

What a crock. In the UK this is the retailer RFD's responsibility........... doesn't anyone know over here?

Nothing on the FIOCCHI UK site - have been through LEGAL NOTES - NEWSLETTERS - and MATERIAL SAFETY notes without success........ other links revert to native Italian or French!

http://www.fiocchiuk.com/hunting-cartridges_288.html

The UK site .243 95-grain product line is '243HSB'. It's on the recall list - with the .243 100-grain '243SPD' which is loaded with the Hornady 100gr SP Interlock.
 
Oh my Life! That makes the dodgy 17 hmr round look like a nitpicky problem. How on earth have the manufacturers managed that one? 2 rounds in 1 case, it beggars belief.
 
Hi Guys,

They are certainly a 100 grain bullet and they are out of a box stating 100 grain & "243SPD". They are aleast a year old as I have 2 cartridges left over which I bought just over a year ago which have the same batch number. However When I looked on the Fiocchi site the other day and it does appear they only offer a 95 grain variant now.
What would be very dissappointing is if these have been knocking around for over a year with a recall on them. I have seen the recall dated Sept 12 & yes I know it may be jumping to conclusions but it fits very well with my scenario.

I have contacted Fiocchi and raised several points. At the moment I will see how things pan out. I just hope they turn out to be a reasonable company to deal with when things go wrong.
 
Since weighing these rounds, and having to accept that there really is two bullets in the case, I have been wondering
about the sort of pressures this may generate.
At first I thought they would be getting on for double, but then though that both bullets are probably the right way up.
That being the case then some pressure will have gone up the barrel with the first bullet before the second one gets to the
lands and re-seals against the second bullet. I also wondered if indeed the second bullet had it been right back against
the back of the case that it could actually get left behind ?
Anybody else got any ideas ?

I'm also thinking about the 425 Fiocchi 20 bore shells I have sitting here, they kick like a mule compared to the same
shot charge in Eley and Express, hard enough that a mates gun was double discharging them :scared:

Neil. :)
 
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Well it's been over a year since I started this thread. I hadn't put any feedback to the outcome as I wanted to see what the outcome from Fiocchi was before I reposted. However I'm sick of it and Fiocchi. As of yet the sorry saga has still not been resolved completely to my satisfaction.

BUT YES FIOCCHI DID LOAD 2 BULLETS IN ONE CASE. One at the bottom and one seated, in the neck. I have a very good, detailed report from the London proof house.


However, there customer service has been extremely poor. At no time have they been proactive in trying to resolve the issue. All correspondence has been left to me to start. Have they answered my questions and queries. Generally, no in fact they have completely ignored them. I Contacted Fiocch Italy and USA nearly 2 weeks ago and they couldn't even be bothered to respond either.

I did state in an email to the UK director, that " I understand things go wrong in any manufacturing process. However its the way the company deal with such matters
that ultimately influences my views on them"

Well I'll let you guys figure what my views on them are, but you get no prizes for guessing right 1st time.
 
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