Managing Permissions.

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Tulloch

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I have had a heck of a time today and although I really should not be posting on here about it I do hope someone will learn from my mistakes about managing permissions specially those who you take on your permission with you.

I have one personal permission , 500 acres of mixed field, improved grass, hill and woodland so the shooting is varied and so is wildlife. It is situated ,arguably, in one of the most unique and beautiful areas the Highlands of Scotland could ever offer with views to the western Mountains of Affric, Mullardoch and Strathfarrer and to the south over Loch Ness.

On occasion I do offer people out for a days shooting crows or out lamping foxes mainly for the company as it can be pretty lonely work if you haven't got someone wandering with you but most of the hours work I put in and the money is on my own time and expenses. The ground I shoot has up until today had numerous guns with permission (unknown to me when I took it over). One person I took out as a lamping buddy went without consulting me first asked the owner for permission to shoot on their own, thinking the reason for the request was because of legal reasons for that person being with me the owner granted the permission, after they got the permission from her they then informed me what they done (thoughts on this would be appreciated) and made regular visits to the farm without my knowledge.

The reason for me saying up until today there were numerous permits granted is because there has to be action taken to limit the access of shooters to the fields. So all permissions have been revoked per contact with myself.

I had a phone call from the landowner this morning asking why I had put tyre tracks all over the top of one of her silage fields (after me knowing the fields had just been fertilised and prepped for growing) on Monday night, I explained I had not been out since Friday as it has been too foggy to lamp and that I did not know whos it was, her response was of shock as she lives on the farm on her own. I told her I would try and find out who it was. Well needless to say on investigation I was met with certain amounts of hostility and deniability from the parties I contacted only to find that the farm hand while at a friends house noticed my lamping buddys vehicle passing the farm (up until that conversation today I was under the impression he did not atend the farm without my knowledge alone), when I questioned him if it was him that was up there his reply to me way as follows

"I do not know what nights I have been up there" and "how would (the farm hands name) know if I was at the farm as I always go there after midnight"

It is not my place to question other shooter behaviors although the initial accusation was towards myself and that the farm owner has left it in my hands to sort it out.,

Well needless to say after today and in discussion with the farm owner (of whom my goal was to help them out with fox and crow problems not hugely interested at the moment in deer) I have been instructed to erect signs saying that all permissions are now cancelled and anyone wanting to shoot has to contact me first.

I feel though that I am burning friendships and oppertunities by taking this task on and I really do not want to cause any problems but it seems I have no choice.

all thoughts welcome.

atb Tulloch
 
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I feel for you, had it happen to me in the last and it's upsetting that people take advantage.
id say you are doing the right thing, and if you lose friend over it then maybe it's better that you know what they're really like.
 
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I really do not want to cause any problems but it seems I have no choice.


Seems to me you know exactly what you have to do. Or walk away from your permission............
 
walking away from the permission is not a choice I have invested over £4000 now in working that permission with almost no chance of return and if you include my time away from my wife, three boys and new born baby girl then I cannot make a costing over it. I am sure many of you have put time and effort and money into your permissions.

You know the sad thing is I love hunting but my real passion is pest control the deer to me is just a bonus and a chance to recoup atleast some of my outgoings and I am looking at it as a long term plan as having my own ground gives me experience in stalking (which I do still need greatly) the confidence without criticism and a chance to manage my own wildlife habitat without paying for an expensive lease as equipment and fuel costs soon add up.

I am not afraid of confrontation as I have been a doorman for 17 years so confrontation is normal for me but I do trust sometimes way too easy.
 
Sounds very underhand to me, best get the problem out of the equation, first and foremost they were only there as your guest.
 
Your lamping buddy was clearly taking the p..s and would now be an ex lamping buddy, as for the others id say you have done the right thing putting signs out so long as the landowner backs you up !!
 
One of the pitfalls of not having a legal contract and then thinking the ground is yours which is not. You say you have spent mega money on the ground without any security over the land... On what and do you expect to hang on to the shoot?
 
in my opinion you should tell all lads concerned in no uncertain words that you/land owner knows someones been on fekd some feilds up so now its, a closed shop because some tool messed it up,she doesnt want anybody on and if she sees any lamps vehicles she will be on phone to the plod , hopefully they might clear off ,but you never know its worth a try ,atb doug,
 
The money has been mainly consumable which I never expect to get back , I agreed with the land owner to do pest control for her and help out , again my problem. I expected there to be other guns on the permission which was never a problem to me . My problem is that the ownership of blame when something goes wrong seems to be falling on my door which I can understand however when something happens and I have no knowledge of it then I cannot stand back and take the brunt. If it was I that made a mistake and put tyre tracks all over her field then I would have admitted and apologised, but I see the farmers point if I am saying it was not me and all the permissions have said it wasnt them even though one was spotted in the area she has a full right to be worried and ask questions on what else is going on.

The area is under scrutiny by the authorities after a big hill fire and a number of poaching incidents but none of the other permission holders seem to be bothered about anything but deer. She has fields that she uses as crop for winter feed and because our jeeps can go everywhere does not mean that they should.

To save in a way my own ass and my rights to shoot there she has put the ball in my court to sort it out as her being a 61 year old woman on her own with only a 20 year old farm hand/manager that comes during the day for help to run the farm. Time and money is truly irrelevant it is security and safety. if no one knows who is on the ground someone will eventually get hurt so this is the only way I know that will sort it all out and monitor it.


I am local to the area of my permission although I do not live locally so if something goes wrong up on the farm in regards to shooting then I am the one who is the first port of call for the authorities and I do not need that kind of grief.
 
Unless a ground was syndicated where everyone is responsible i would have nothing to do with it. Every beast with a blown off jaw will be blamed on you.
£4,000 spent on what?
 
You certainly do need something on paper from the landowner if you don't already. Any ground that has more than one shooter on it needs some kind of organising and if you are the point of contact for the landowner then you have no choice but to lay down the law or hand over the permission. I would record all correspondence with the other shooters (email/letter) and it would be along the lines of no shooting until further notice.

... and make it clear = ' acting on behalf of the landowner I am withdrawing all authority to shoot on said farm until further written notice. Any matter shooting related in future to be directed to me'

You can add any reasoning before or after, you regretting it and other stuff. Job done.
 
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I would consider this a great result and it really puts you in the driving seat on this land and in relations with the land owner.

Why not talk to her about rationalising the number of guns on the land or even the prospect of you being the only one? The lady wants to feel safe (which is understandable) and she wants the land managed and the vermin and deer shot, it sounds to me that you are the ideal candidate and to be holding control of other shooters access sounds like a great position to be in. You dont need to fall out with anyone, let those you trust have access when its right for you, dont when it isnt.

Good luck.
 
You certainly do need something on paper from the landowner if you don't already. Any ground that has more than one shooter on it needs some kind of organising and if you are the point of contact for the landowner then you have no choice but to lay down the law or hand over the permission. I would record all correspondence with the other shooters (email/letter) and it would be along the lines of no shooting until further notice.

I have full written permission signed , and as of today I have sole user permission with people that are with me that are authorised to do so. Signs are made and are up saying STOP ALL SHOOTING PERMISSIONS CANCELLED , ANY TRESPASSING WITH FIREARMS WILL BE REPORTED TO POLICE. police have been contacted also asking them to put on the night shooting database that if anyone other than myself phones in to shoot at night on the farm to mention that their permissions have been cancelled.

RED-DOT , 3 months of almost being there daily and £70 on fuel per day, equipment that I wouldn't normally need if I was just stalking and my time. but the cost is not what I care about just too much to be walking away from easy.
 
I have full written permission signed , and as of today I have sole user permission with people that are with me that are authorised to do so. Signs are made and are up saying STOP ALL SHOOTING PERMISSIONS CANCELLED , ANY TRESPASSING WITH FIREARMS WILL BE REPORTED TO POLICE. police have been contacted also asking them to put on the night shooting database that if anyone other than myself phones in to shoot at night on the farm to mention that their permissions have been cancelled.

RED-DOT , 3 months of almost being there daily and £70 on fuel per day, equipment that I wouldn't normally need if I was just stalking and my time. but the cost is not what I care about just too much to be walking away from easy.


Sounds like you are doing just fine! Personally I would not be involving the police at any level at the moment (certainly not to 'book out'). For the majority of forces it can create more problems than it solves but I won't take you off on a tangent! If you have local bobby style policing it might work for you. Just be careful that the shooting does not become a problem to the landowner. It would be far better to sort it quick then get rid of the signs and make it a thing of the past where she is concerned.
 
I would consider this a great result and it really puts you in the driving seat on this land and in relations with the land owner.

Why not talk to her about rationalising the number of guns on the land or even the prospect of you being the only one? The lady wants to feel safe (which is understandable) and she wants the land managed and the vermin and deer shot, it sounds to me that you are the ideal candidate and to be holding control of other shooters access sounds like a great position to be in. You dont need to fall out with anyone, let those you trust have access when its right for you, dont when it isnt.

Good luck.

Thank you just the advice I was needing and lots of advice also brilliant. I was just wondering if anyone has come across a similar problem , I really didnt want to fall out with anyone and personally I don't really care who shoots as long as it is done responsibly. The whole point is to help this woman out in a way that only someone with a certificate can, I think she was put in the position to believe the more guns the better scenario but it seems the other guns only want the deer and not actually interested in shooting the foxes.
 
I
I feel though that I am burning friendships and opportunities by taking this task on and I really do not want to cause any problems but it seems I have no choice

Anyone who would be willing to do what the culprits have done isn't a friend - they're a dirty ******* snivelling cheat who is F**king you in the a**!

Anyone who is a friend will understand 100% and back you on it!

Take this as a chance to take the situation back in hand, pare it down and only allow those you trust 100% going forward.
 
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I have a family member who works on a farm in Northumberland, he got permission from the landowner to take me onto the land. on my first visit we were met by the owner and the farm manager who made it clear to me "don't come back and shoot on my own, don't come to the farm asking for permission to shoot on my own" if I did either I was told I wouldn't be allowed back.
Unfortunately its the only place I have to go shooting and as the family member hasn't been out for 18months I haven't had any shooting either. So basically anybody you invite onto the land make sure they know exactly where they stand.
 
The guy that done this to you was never a friend, just an underhanded sh*t, as someone who has no permission yet i go out with a mate and would NEVER think of approaching the landowner, but now you have things in writing you can regain your rightfull control over your shooting,
hope everthing settles down soon for you,best of luck
 
It is really low that, you give someone a break and they pi55 up your leg, you don't need friends like that, drop them like a bad habit!
 
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