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Thread: Unreasonable condition applied to FAC- Advice please

  1. #1

    Unreasonable condition applied to FAC- Advice please

    Over 1 month ago I returned my FAC+SGC to Avon and Somerset for change of address and a varriation to aquire a .243 rifle.

    I currently hold an open FAC and I am allowed to shoot all legal deer species with my .223. My coterminous certificates expire in September 2010.

    With my application I submitted on the approved forms: signed permission to shoot deer on several permissions I already shoot on , by way of assisting the process. I obtained my DSC level 1 last summer and I have stalked both alone and accompanied for some years.

    Yesterday I contact A@S to see why my certificates were taking so long to return. I was informed that there was a problem with my permissions in that the land was only passed for.22LR and neded to be inspected.

    I was also told that as I had applied for a "deer calibre" rifle I would be automatically placed on a restricted ticket.

    When I submitted the permissions I thought I would automatically get an open ticket for the .243 and it never occured to me that the land was only approved for .22LR( I applied for my first FAC a decade ago)

    I shoot on numerous parcels of land both at home , in Shropshire and the Borders.

    My FLO has recently retired, I am meeting my new FLO next Thursday pm.

    Advice on how I deal with this would be gratefully appreciated. A .243 with a condition on it would be a good as usleess, seems mad to me that I could be out on my land and could shoot a Muntjac with my .223 but was prevented from doing so with my .243!!!

    Has the world gone mad!!!!


  2. #2
    In a word, YES!, you will just have to sit down with your F.E.O. & TRY TO TALK SENSE with him/her! , failing a useful outcome speak to BASC, if you are a member. Steve.

  3. #3
    "I currently hold an open FAC..."

    For which calibres?

    "...and I am allowed to shoot all legal deer species with my .223"


    You need to clarify your post.

    A&S carry out land checks if they are unfamiliar with the land, They have a no risk approach to their pensions so you have to be patient.

    Depending on who you speak to in A&S you may get different opinions, they vary.

    Can you go in to discuss it with them, make an appointment perhaps, it may resolve matters amicably.

  4. #4

    Forgot to say that I spoke to BASC yesterday, they suggested good talk with FLO, if no joy I will need to contact head of licencing and if still no joy they will contact him directly on my behalf

    I would like to get it sorted with my new FLO it would not have been a problem with my old one.

    I think I may have to take him out in my truck and show him all my permissions in South Glos and ask him if he wants to inspect all of them. Should keep him busy for a week or so!!

    I expect he will also like a trip to Shropshire and Northumberland.


  5. #5
    Sounds like you are going to need a shipping order for biccies & a new BIG flask!

  6. #6

    I have an open FAC all all my firearms, inc .177 air rifle, .22lr and .223.

    Legal deer means have it on my certificate that I can shoot Roe in Scotland and CWD and Muntys in England with the .223.

    Hope that suffices.


  7. #7
    well mine has just come back and for my .223 they have put fox munty/cwd in england/wales.and it doesnt mater what i say they wont let me have 25.06 for fox only whilst makes you wonder why each county has different ideas , so if you have been stalking and wanted to go lamping on your way home you cant, unless you have had another rifle locked in your motor whilst out with a diffrent rifle stalking.i dont think so . im on a open ticket so whats there bloody problem.i hope you have more luck than me.

  8. #8
    had a similer problem with 243 i have had open ticket since the start had to point out to pit street that by giving me a open ticket that they had given me the right to shoot where i want as its the shooter who desides if the gun shot is safe with open ticket you can shoot eney ground with permison it is irelivent if the ground was onley passed for air gun open ticket taikes the problem out of police hands and puts the responsabilitey on the shooter so if you shoot on a bit of land and it goes tits up you are held responsable if the police clear the land and it goes tits up then they are partley to blame for clearing land that was not up to the job i have had the feo phone me from the top of a hill saying cant see eney red deer as if the deer would just stand and wave still got my 243 for red deer even thought he never spotted eney somtimes the law is totaly ignorant of its own laws point out what a open ticket is you deside not them

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by tika.308
    well mine has just come back and for my .223 they have put fox munty/cwd in england/wales.and it doesnt mater what i say they wont let me have 25.06 for fox only whilst makes you wonder why each county has different ideas
    Why not ask them to put it in writing and see how they can justify it?

    What force BTW?

    That goes against both the Home Office guidance and the recommendation of ACPO FELWG - here it is again for anyone who missed it earlier:

    The Association of Chief Police Officers (ACPO) Firearms and Explosives Licensing Working Group (FELWG) has issued advice that supports Chapter 13.14 & 13.22 of the Home Office guidance. It advised police forces to allow larger calibre rifles to be used to take lesser species i.e. where the primary reason for possession e.g. deer stalking was established, all lesser species such as foxes and pests could then be shot.

    This practice has been commonplace in Scotland for some time, and has not endangered public safety in any way. In June 2009 ACPO FELWG again advised forces of a new condition that can be used in place of the standard condition in Appendix 3 of the Home Office guidance. -

    The (rifle/sound moderator/firearms/ammunition) shall be used for shooting (Named Principal Quarry Species) and any other lawful quarry, on land deemed suitable by the chief officer of police for the area where the land is situated, and for zeroing on ranges, over which the holder has lawful authority to shoot. (Delete italics where appropriate)

    This identifies the primary reason for use e.g. deer/fox control, then allows “other lawful quarry”. Certificate holders are invited to apply for this condition from their local licensing departments.

    That is taken from the BACS website so their Firearms Department should be able to take it up for you if you don't want to push them yourself - don't just take it lying down though.

  10. #10
    Cyres, having dealt with A&S before, (part-time RFD within their area), I feel your pain.

    I take it you have moved to their area from another force and are now having the cosh put on you?

    Is the principal area of land you have nominated with A&S or elsewhere? If so it might pan out okay once the inspection is done.

    But I think you need to request an urgent face-to-face with the FLO to explain your level of experience and present any and all documentation to support your .243 application - good point about you already shooting Muntjac with the .223, throw that one at them if they try to give you any nonsense about restricting you for 'deer'.

    It sounds as if the person you spoke to on the 'phone might have been as knowledgable about firearms and licensing as the FEO I had from Devon & Cornwall!

    Stay calm, get your side of things over to them by referring to the HO guidance etc. and best of luck

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