Trees versus Deer

scotspine

Well-Known Member
Here’s another article which has a pop at the Forestry Commission for continuing to cull through the winter as deer herds push into FC woodlands to find food and shelter.

As easy as it is to slag the FC, I actually sympathise with it as it has to protect trees throughout the year otherwise face hefty re-planting costs and degraded timber crops. Better fencing would help the trees, but that wouldn’t help the deer, just move the problem elsewhere. The FC can’t win. I suppose private woodland owners are in a similar position. You only get one chance to establish a quality tree crop so any forester worth his salt wants deer numbers pegged back to minimal levels until the crop is hardy enough to allow deer densities to pick up again.

Private landowners (sporting estates) are more fortunate as they can choose to sacrifice tree quality for the sake of deer in hard weather, but even they would not risk ruining a young woodland that is still within a grant aided forestry scheme.


My view is that the best way to maintain a healthy herd is to provide food and shelter in strategic locations throughout an estate. Native woodland cover fits the bill nicely. I have been involved in woodland establishment in the highlands for over 20years now and I am now seeing some of “my” earlier plantings opened up to deer and I suspect the deer are pretty pleased with the results.

There is a push at the moment to reduce deer numbers across Scotland so my advice is that sporting estates will have to look at ways to support a decent herd through diligent habitat management or run the risk of losing out in the long run. Relying on the FC to provide winter shelter is not an option.

Now before anyone thinks that I have little regard for deer please note that I enjoy stalking and believe that it is an essential part of the rural economy in Scotland, however I also believe that the current situation is not sustainable and deer managers would do well to plan ahead with both environment and the deer herd in mind. This may well require some short term pain but the results will be well worth it.

Regards

http://www.north-star-news.co.uk/news/fullstory.php/aid/5572/Ross_keepers__deer_cull_row_fury!.html
 
Scotspine,

I thought you were busy enough, is this you touting for more work with little plantations all over the highlands:lol::lol:.

Back to your post now, it is a good point that you have made for managers to do a little forward planning. I think the problem with FC is that in the case on the West coast, the deer were in a mature wood (only what I heard) and they are using a well known ex-poacher (perhaps still one) to do their work.

For foresters though, your damned if you do, and damned if you dont.:confused:
 
Totally agree with you sp, although I'm in the same game as you.

Interesting how ths has been reported

""I didn't have the heart to put a shot in it. I put it down to an animal sanctuary at Durnamuck where it's being looked after."

Give me a break!!!!!!!

This type of sensationalised repoting wont get us anywhere.

Not shooting deer in hard weather is a joke, there is absolutely no welfare issues in shooting deer in snow.

Although there may be issues in chasing deer out of shelter in a storm but if they are dead there is not a problem.

If an animal is so thin it is not fit for the food chain surely it needs to be shot, is that not why we kill deer? to kill weak animals?
I have alway thought that meat production was a by product of deer management, surely the welfare of deer comes before a £ at the game dealer.
In fact leaving carcases on he hill would be of great benefit to eagles etc. at this time of year.

Keepers/stalkers [including me] can be he biggest hypocrits on earth, they say it is wrong to kill deer in extreme weather yet revel in the chance to kill a fox


25194_1208444136719_1397187007_30485849_8023334_n.jpg

I await the incoming barrage :)
 
while I'm on my soap box

Q. Who sold he FC the land the trees are on and pocketed the money

A. The same sporting estates who are moaning about shooting deer :rolleyes:

There is a saying about cake at the eating of it:lol:

I do believe FCS acted stupidly at Loch Arkaig after making plans with th estate to try and drive deer out.
 
I have just read the article from the Tain paper and there are some pertinent points in there but also some that are pulling at the heart strings. Bambislayer has already covered that point.

I am sure that the estates and other deer managers will be looking at the deer starving to death is their cull being taken care of by nature. This will be why many of them have stopped. They should not stop completely though, but only continue with the extremely weak ones, like the calf at the side of the road. I am not surprised to see that FC and DCS have advised to continue culling as normal as this is like a huge bonus to them. They strive to get the deer numbers down and to continue as normal will perhaps see their quotas double or more.

My own belief is that estates should only cull the worst conditioned animals.

FC have a crop to look after and should look after it by culling deer.

DCS are out of order by asking or telling estates to continue with culls when nature is doing the deed.
 
Hi Jingzy

Is the whole reason we shoot deer not that we kill them quickly and humanely and not let them starve to death?

We all gave LACS hell when they took that approach.
 
I dont have a great deal of experience, but a couple of years ago I fenced off a few acres and brought in some red deer. My observations are that they are nothing like as hardy as I assumed. They need large amounts of food and whilst they can reduce this need by reducing their activity they dont appear to be able to do this for long. The lack of fat on a deer might make them good to eat but it does leave them vulnerable to sustained adverse weather conditions. Once they start losing condition they can lose the fight quite quickly.
it might be that my deer are southern softies but they appear to me, to be animals much more suited to a woodland environment than the hill.
 
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it might be that my deer are southern softies but they appear to me, to be animals much more suited to a woodland environment than the hill.

Howa, your thoughts are spot on because their natural habitat is woodland. Check out body weights of eastern European beasts and you will see that Scottish hill animals are not in the same league. They don't live up there from choice, they would much rather be down in a nice cosy wood with loads of scoff. Some years ago a friend of mine kept some deer amongst which was an imported Romanian Red Stag. When it came up to the fence and looked you in the eye you realise how flaming enormous they are!
 
It is like anything if you shoot deer at this time of year after a very harsh winter you will put the rest at risk.Its not the ones that are shot that have the welfare issue it is the ones that run away time and time again. There bodys can ony take so much with out good sustinance,So for me its leave them alone and let them see out the rest of the winter which in england and southern scotland is untill end of march /Early April in the highlands it will last till may.
 
It's true that deer are very much woodland animals and have just had to adapt to open hill because of man, weight differences are very appaerrent in Scotland , on the same piece of land, stags from within a fenced wood will out perform anything a few 100metres away on the hill.
Deer not only evolved in woodlands they evolved as a prey species and it is quite natural for them to flee predators, within woodland it may only be a few 100 metres after a rifle shot, on the open hill it may be miles, therefore it's probably the fact they are out in open ground that is causing the most stress. I think this really is aparent in the rut when deer are travelling large distances and holding far bigger harems than they would in a natural woodland enviroment.

There's no way Landseers Monarch of the glen was born and raised in a sodden wet glen on acidic soil:)
 
Totally agree with you sp, although I'm in the same game as you.

Interesting how ths has been reported

""I didn't have the heart to put a shot in it. I put it down to an animal sanctuary at Durnamuck where it's being looked after."

Give me a break!!!!!!!

This type of sensationalised repoting wont get us anywhere.

Not shooting deer in hard weather is a joke, there is absolutely no welfare issues in shooting deer in snow.

Although there may be issues in chasing deer out of shelter in a storm but if they are dead there is not a problem.

If an animal is so thin it is not fit for the food chain surely it needs to be shot, is that not why we kill deer? to kill weak animals?
I have alway thought that meat production was a by product of deer management, surely the welfare of deer comes before a £ at the game dealer.
In fact leaving carcases on he hill would be of great benefit to eagles etc. at this time of year.

Keepers/stalkers [including me] can be he biggest hypocrits on earth, they say it is wrong to kill deer in extreme weather yet revel in the chance to kill a fox


View attachment 183

I await the incoming barrage :)

Looking at the photo BS, reminds me of a keeper friend who was telling me about going after foxes on the skidoos. Sounds like great fun.
 
Hi Jingzy

Is the whole reason we shoot deer not that we kill them quickly and humanely and not let them starve to death?

We all gave LACS hell when they took that approach.

BS,

you are absolutely right, but this does not mean that every deer is going to starve to death. This is why managers need to weed out those in the poorest condition, not just shoot them because they are there and that they may starve to death.

In fact, at this moment in time, keepers should be allowed an open season for welfare purposes only.
 
This is an argument that will continue forever.
At the moment from what I have seen the problem is that there is no fairness invollved. The forestry's concerns take precedence.
If you are planting a cash crop woodland or any woodland for that matter that you dont want damaged from deer then you should fence it off untill it is of an age that it can cope. This goes for re gen of a mature woodland also. Currently if you are trying to get re gen in a mature woodland the deer are treated like vermin - Fair? It cant be.
If after planting a block of forestry the area left has too many deer on then a cull should take place but not to the low numbers some agencies and people would have us believe it should be. If there are too many deer in this country it is not to the extent we are being told. Perhaps in some locations there may be but this is not the norm.
As for the question of culling the deer in the current conditions we have up here in the highlands I'd say no.
In a normal winter I would agree that weak or suffering animals should be culled. This is not a normal winter and its quite possible it may turn out to be our worst winter in history. Lets be honest here, all the deer living out on the hills in the highlands at the moment are struggling and are very weak compared to a normal winter. Animals have been dying for quite some weeks now. So for the DCS to say they culls should have continued regardless is to me abhorent
Before this winter is over a helluva lot of deer will die in our countryside. If we go out now and shoot the weakest animals all we will do is weaken further the rest of the herd that will be stressed at the sound of the shot and also lose more of their condition due to haveing to flee from there. Normally the case to shoot weak and suffering animals is the right thing to do but in the current circumstances up here in the highlands this is not the case. Yes it may be unsightly to see animals suffering. But to cull the weaker ones is only going to get the others in a similar state faster therefore you end up with a lot more animals suffering.

Just to let people know the weather has been like for these animals that arnt up here in the highlands, I havent seen my grass in the garden since the 16th of December.
Around a fortnight ago there had been a slow thaw and I thought I might have seen the grass in a day or so but alas, we had another foot of snow overnight followed by -15deg temperatures. Then last week on top of this we had over 3ft in 2 days. Again followed but -12 deg temperatures. The hills these deer live on are white, no bare ridges where the snow has been blown off, just pure snow.It looks amazing but form the deers point of view it has been catastrophic. So to go out and do what in a normal winter would be the right thing and shoot one or two of the weaker animails, this winter it cant be the right thing. Chasing deer round a hillside through snow that in many cases will be from 3 to 8ft or more deep in places is olny weakening those that have a better chance of surviving.
 
I have the same conditions here that Salmo describes save the snow depth is a bit deeper. I had to get a friendly neighbour with a huge earthmover to drive up the forest track where I live just so myself and family could walk out in the tyre tracks. Off the road the snow is up to my waist and even under the trees it is knee height. Hundreds of trees have been brought down by the weight of snow and the fences have been crushed by several toppled lodgepoles. I havnt been able to access 90% of my ground for a week now and last nights -18 froze a crust on the snow that almost takes my weight.

The deer that were already struggling are now in serious trouble. Yesterday I struggled to a vantage point where I can see some feedblocks I strung up a while back. Several hinds were round them and when one moved it had to bound through the snow to make headway. Moving like this is extremly energy sapping. They just dont have the reserves to allow them to move without it weakening them further. I decided that it was in their interest not to be disturbed at all so I retreated back without looking any further. Then on my way back to the house I heard voices. A group of brightly clad cross-county skiers appeared round the corner. I asked them where they were going and they showed me a os map of the area and said they were going round the tracks of my and the next-door property. I can do nothing about this kind of disturbance now we have an open access rule here in Scotland. Appealing to them not to ski past the deer fell on deaf ears and I know from experiences in the past that if you dont co-operate with these types you get reported and get a visit from the council access officer. To make matters worse they had brought their vehicle into my forest where the digger had cleared a lay-by just inside the gate so when my wife came home there was no space to park just a wall of snow.

I can only hope for an early spring to save the deer as in an old farming saying--April is the cruelest month. We arnt there yet and no sign of a thaw. David
 
Hi Stringer

These foxes were all chased with the ski-dooin one afternoon and were close enough to be shot with a shotgun, very effective and great fun, what would people say if we did this with deer????????? [there's a lot of hypocacy about:)]

I'm not advocating wiping out deer, in fact I just told a client today that he shouldn't shoot any does once [sorry if] the thaw comes. As the weather in speyside here has surely killed a lot of roe especially on the hill.

I do think that we have to be pragmatic about the whole thing , if we need to feed or open gates to allow deer shelter then go for it if it falls into your landuse requirements but if i allows you to kill more deer in a problem area then you must make the most of a bad situation.

Open and free access is something we have to work with now, I'm sure the authors of the code wouldn't put up with the dailly disruption to there day to day jobs that stalkers now have to put up with.
 
hav i missed something here
you take an area that is deer enriched
plant it with trees minus any serious fencing to protect such a crop
shoot all deer on sight day and night for the next 10-15 years even setting up a sydicate of 4+ members and charging them £500+ a year aswell as having contract stalkers on hand incase
that is quite an income
then after 15+ years you allow full access with open arms to the deer you hav painstakenly tried to deter from gaining access to such land by shooting on sight
even talking about setting up feed sites to encourage the deer back
WTF is that about
then you decide time to clearfell.......
what about the deer any thoughts there
from there you replant the clear fell and start procedures where every deer on sight is to be shot day and night once more
sorry guys and gals
i must of missed something here
 
Nice to see good support for forestry. I think landowners should take advantage of the current political climate and use the available forestry grant money to enhance their estates. I'm currently busy negotiating on behalf of a number of landowners to bring about the restoration of SSSI which are in unfavourable condition. This invariably involves controlling deer and livestock. The short term pain will be worth it especially if it allows the estate to maintain a better sporting herd in the future.

The culling of deer in forestry will always cause problems but you can’t blame the forester for protecting the assets. Culling can also be way cheaper than re-fencing so no wonder it happens.


Stone…. I like your Forest Plan….you want a job?

Regards
 
You can blame the forrester for not protecting the assets if they werent protected in the first place. As for culling being cheaper than fencing, that says it all as far as I'm concerned. Deer are a pert of our natural heritage just as much as trees. So the cost should not be the guiding factor in setting up a new forestry block. Culling yes after, if there are too many deer for the land now available to them after the fences have been put up. If there are grants for forestry, then this leaves even less of an excuse for culling the deer.
If you cant afford to fence it then dont do it.
 
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