12 bore cartridges for inland geese.

Moonraker68

Well-Known Member
I'm heading to Scotland in December for a few days goose shooting. Any recommendations for cartridges would be appreciated. I use a Browning 525 with 3 inch chambers and fixed 1/4 and 3/4 choke. Would Gamebore Buffalo 36gms of 4 shot be ok? The other option in my local shop would be the same cartridge but loaded with BB
 
Personally 4's is too small, BB too big 1's or 3's are good I prefer 3's. Most important is getting the lead in the right place.. I Like 40gm + loads and aim for the beak.


Nutty
 
36g 1,2 or 3s will be pleanty ,, wouldent go too heavy ,, shot a 42g 1 out of a over and under once , my shoulder didnt like it much .. as nutty said aim for the beak
 
Know a lad that shoots (ridicuasly) large number of geese over decoys (3 figures at a time on some occasions) and he just uses 6's, if ur aiming and hiting the head it won't make any difference will kill just the same but u won't get much penetration on body/wings so won't get the same wounded geese. Not saying it is entirely right on either score but at the relatively short ranges u will be shootng at won't make much difference really. Bit different on the foreshore. Depending wot type of grond ur shooting over will probably be ok with lead shot ie not wetland (i'm sure u already know tthis thou;))

Possibly depend if ur gun actually likes the load but i tend to like a smaller shot size with a better tighter pattern, i don't think penetration is the be all and end all that many seem to think.
When was the last time u plucked/skinned a pheasant never mind a goose and a pellet had penetrated all way throu the feathers and breast/bone to give u a killing heart shot even at 30m.
In my opinion larger shot just wounds more, if ur behind/body no matter how large the shot u will not kill the bird cleanly if at all but ur heavy shot will penetrate the body/gut that same shot with lighter shot will probably bounce of the feathers.
Back in the victorian era the old toff's would take a pocketful of 8's if they were expecting high birds,as more chance of getting a head shot with more pellets/tighter pattern

Most won't agree with this, but something to think about
 
Most won't agree with this, but something to think about

I can't dispute your pal's success on geese using 6's but I don't agree with the theory, beyond the clear effectiveness of a very dense pattern of small shot place firmly on the head at ranges close enough to guarantee a brain/spine hit from that pattern. This is where Payne-Gallwey's idea of 1oz of smaller shot for high pheasants is founded - although to be fair it is likely that what Sir Ralph considered high would have been close enough for the small shot to work anyway, his concept being the correct one, namely that pattern fails before penetration at sporting ranges.

I'm not sure the concept of 6's not wounding because they don't penetrate far enough is correct: it seems to me likely that a pellet that doesn't penetrate far enough can do nothing but wound. As for pellets 'bouncing off the feathers'...

When I used to get a chance at geese, I had formed the view that in a 1 1/4oz 12bore load, BB was indeed too big and would lead to risk of wounding because of inadequate pattern.

Therefore, my choice was 1 1/4oz of 3's, which seemed to offer the best balance of pattern and penetration for a bird markedly larger than Payne-Gallwey's pheasant. And keep the ranges sensible - easy to misjudge on large birds!
 
Ur spot on above Dalua:thumb: Wot i was trying to say was i think a lot of folk nowadays just go for heavy shot atuomatically with out thinking about pattern, whereas it should be a bit of a comprimise depending on species and range
I wasnae actually advocating using 6's but just saying if u know ur ranges and are a competent shooting in front even a small shot size could b used althou not ur ideal/first choice.

I realise that in that era it was more about quantity rather the quality but also the shells woul not be going at the velocity they are now, been a big difference even in last 20 odd years
Wot i was trying to say (badly) was that if ur shooting a bird up the bum it will take a hell of a penetration afore u achieve a texas heart shot. With a smaller shot any injuries would be less if any (esp with duck/geese with there dense feathers/down) but still have the power to kill cleanly if ur hitting the head/neck area
Even on normal pheasant shoots u see a lot of guns shooting with HV 5's or even 4's on fairly average birds, just no need, and then they wnder why the birds are only fit for soup



I would say 3 or 4's would be plenty at the ranges ur shooting geese at assuming there coming into decoys, not like ur on the forshore

My old head keeper used to say the trick to shooting geese was 'imagine the heads a snipe'
 
I've always found that 36g of 3's in lead is perfect for inland Scottish geese, you'll get a pattern more in keeping with what you are familiar with smaller shot. If its a specuial trip up north for a few days goose shooting, it might be worth finding another shop near by that sells a broader range of cartridges.
 
Food for thought lads. I also believe that "heavy" loads for high Pheasants is shall I dare say a modern fad. Some of the best Pheasant shots Ive seen used 1oz or 1 1/8. Years ago I used nothing but Fiochi semi mags for geese. These were in a silver box with 10 in the box. The supply ran out, and thats when I moved over to 3" after trying several other brands of "semi's" that didnt quite cut it.


Nutty
 
The last time i was shooting Canada Geese i was using a 20 bore with number 6 shot over a stubble field they dropped ok but obviously i wasn't taking ridiculous long range shots.
 
I wish we could still use lead for waterfowl... Those were the days.

Anyway, when I was shooting lead at geese I was using 3's they were generally accepted as the smallest you wanted to go I was using some Winchester super x magnum cartridges, copper plated, buffered lead shot. Cant get ahold of them now but they were mustard at some really very silly ranges.

Since the lead ban I have gone over to 10 bore to make up for the loss of effectiveness of the non lead substitutes. 2.5 ounces of BB tungsten matrix regains that loss at range that the lead ban took from us.

In answer to the question, I would say, like nuttyspaniel the 4's are a little on the light side, if your only other option Is BB, I have shot geese, and rooks and crows with a 2 3\4" load of BB that Express do. Cant think what weight they were now. do you have time to try to pattern test them? In a 3 inch load they shouldn't be too bad as there will be a good number in the case.
 
Interesting the point raised by country boy about shooting 5's at pheasants. I have always shot 5's at pheasants, partridges, pigeons, rabbits etc etc. I have probably shot 10's of thousands of birds with them, never had one that was only fit for soup but I have had a lot of people tell me they were "too big" and that I'd make a mess of the birds... Well yeah if you shoot them on the end of your barrel, but wouldn't 6's or even 7's do that? I'd go as far as to say you wouldn't be able to tell the difference in birds shot with 6's and the ones shot with 5's or 4's on a shoot day as long as they were all shot at reasonable ranges.

Count the pellet holes in a shot bird, how many actually strike 3? 5? 6? Does the size difference between 4 and 6 shot really smash a bird up that much? Nope.
 
With all ur birds u've shot, i persume u skin/pluck/butcher a few for urself.
Have u ever noticed using 5's or even 4's a pellet to penetrate right throu feathers, the breast muscle and breast bone to hit the heart/lungs? Ie prove to be a fatal wound.
Over the last few years i do look for pellet damge and wot pellets hit where and how far they penetrated, very rare to see pellets travel that far into breast muscle far enough to be fatal.

My opinion is after 20m the only way u will kill a bird is a head shot, 1 or 2 pellets is all it takes and they will come down stone dead, when doing walked up i have seen birds hit hard/borderline pillow cased even when a bit further awy but caught full pattern not to be found by the dogs, my spaniel got 1 that ran 50m a few seasons ago, no one could beilieve it was not dead the way it was hit, just luck we found it really
When u strech the ranges a 6 wil still be enough to kill a bird in the head but will not be enough to break wings or legs, which wil not be pleasant for bird but i would guess it will recover, with ur larger shot sizes they will still break bones at longer ranges. But do i really want to be breaking bones at longer ranges, wot % of birds are picked up that have a wing/leg down some can cover massive distances esp when started of fairly high
 
Food for thought lads. I also believe that "heavy" loads for high Pheasants is shall I dare say a modern fad. Some of the best Pheasant shots Ive seen used 1oz or 1 1/8. Years ago I used nothing but Fiochi semi mags for geese. These were in a silver box with 10 in the box. The supply ran out, and thats when I moved over to 3" after trying several other brands of "semi's" that didnt quite cut it.


Nutty

If you want food for thought watch this and listen to the comments the guns make, especially Dave Carrie

[video]www.youtube.com/watch?v=ro8trWEkYjE[/video]

It`s a fantastic place with exceptionally high birds, that I can vouch for


Bob
 
hi mate . am from the highlands and i shoot geese every weekend . number 1s for me up here ps there is lots of birds about .

best of luck
 
I don't disagree with you Countryboy, I think we just have a different take on what we see in the field.

Where you have gone smaller shot for a denser pattern I have gone heavier shot for better penetration.

It is worth mentioning that I shoot a 30 inch barrelled Semi auto with half choke for steel, (That's the tightest you can go) but with lead I used 3/4, and half and 3/4 in my game gun.

One thing I will say is that smaller shot doesn't necessarily mean a denser pattern. It depends a lot on the cartridge, and barrel and choke that it is shot out of. Unless you pattern test your cartridges at the ranges you intend to shoot at you are firing blind so to speak.

I only really started patterning when I started loading my own shotgun ammunition and it is very eye opening. Not only for your pattern densities but penetration as well.

After 20m (or indeed before) with lighter loads and smaller shot your penetration will be markedly less than heavier loads with larger shot through a longer barrel and tighter choke. Maybe because I started Wildfowling and then progressed to pigeon/rough/pheasant shooting I took my heavier cartridges along with me, my point was that the whole thing about birds being blown to bits, or "only fit for soup" by larger cartridges is untrue in my experience... Unless they were shot on the end of the barrel.

Don't you think the wisdom is contradictory?

after 20M pellets don't pentrate the breast muscle and yet you say that with HV 4's and 5's people are wondering why their birds are only fit for soup. Well if that is happening then the pellets are surely penetrating like hell.
 
I used a 20g for all my shooting untill a couple of years ago. I pulled geese down just as well with a 20 as a 12. Its not about big shot. I used 5 shot on hares duck and geese. 6 on other stuff. It killed great and at good distance. A 20 has a tighter pattern and hits very hard. I shot all my geese in the head. All dead. You dont need real heavy cartridges unless you cant hit the head.
 
I just dinae see wot benefit penetration (no inuendo's please ;)) gives u for game shooting. Unless u are a very good shot who can kill cleanly and consistantly at these longer ranges, but the simple fact is most game shots can't (including myself)

Even with these birds that i would say were ruined by the shot, the shot marks to the breast would probably not prove fatal, ie may have ruined the best part of the bird but had not actually went throu the breast bone so won't have affected the heart/lungs.
Dunno how good ur birds are in ur area but a true 30m bird is a good bird on most shoots and a great many will be shot below 30m, ur average walked up/rough bird is probably closer to 15-20m.
If u go back in time most pheasants were shot with 1oz (28g) off 6's yet now with modern shells/powder guns etc we are using 36g of larger shot, surely larger shot travelling faster than ever and more of it must affect the state of the bird?

Yes i can understand the science behind it but fail to see how it really affects game shooting in practice, yes u will break more legs and wings, but thoose birds can often be hard to retrieve even with decent dogs. But surely if ur getting more pentration also have a greater chance of wounding to further distances. Quite often whe u skin pheasants ur smaller shot is just below skin/feather with very little pentration so bird would probably survive fairly well if not for the pellet in the head.
 
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