Bavarian mountain hound and hanoverian hounds

jimmy milnes

Well-Known Member
Hi all
Just been watching a programme on the yesterday channel about the highlands and part of it was showing the use of dogs for finding lost people who have gotten into difficulties on the hill, this got me to thinking do the hanoverians and bavarians get used for this kind of work anywhere? Surely due to the excellent tracking ability of the breeds they would be very capable members of a mountain rescue team .
Regards
Jimmy
 
I was talking to a top rescue chap and he has collies. I asked why not use a dedicated hound. He said that they tend to work with out thinking head down and gone. They need a dog that can find and use its own initiative covering large areas on there own but still under full control of the handler. They also normally bark constant when they find this could cause further snow slides and could stress out the person stuck. Just his thought he said a few other things but I will leave them out of the post jimmy as they might offend sensitive owners..

 
I was talking to a top rescue chap and he has collies. I asked why not use a dedicated hound. He said that they tend to work with out thinking head down and gone. They need a dog that can find and use its own initiative covering large areas on there own but still under full control of the handler. They also normally bark constant when they find this could cause further snow slides and could stress out the person stuck. Just his thought he said a few other things but I will leave them out of the post jimmy as they might offend sensitive owners..


They use collies in the Lake District. They're pretty cool to watch work.
 
When i was a boy we used to hide out for the SARDA dogs on the hill, all collies then, but that was 30yrs ago.

Generally they quarter the hillside air secenting for people rather than following a track, since i have learned more about dogs i have always wondered why they don't now use HPR's or english pointers/setters. They seem ideally suited for it but possibly to harder to train than colies.
Was asking a mountain rescue boy at the grouse the other week about it and still all collies
 
I suppose it would be difficult to use a tracking dog, because there may not be much of a last known whereabouts to work from. The dog could spend hours tracking the wrong person. That's just speculation.
 
I did a few years ago test with the Belgian police to see the diffirence in work , a very good expirience . In south Tirol some are jused as recuedog and in some parts off Germany the are jused for mantrailling ;
 
Our very old (15yrs) GSP was a lowland search and rescue dog. V good tracker and had 3 solo finds over an 8yr career. By no means a knock on collies but he would keep going what ever the weather when they had lost interest. He could also ground track as well as air scent which when its raining and or windy is a huge plus. I can understand the not using a hound.......but an hpr though...........?
 
Old thread I know but that s the project I m getting into. Historically most SAR teams worked with utility / sheep breeds. There are different reasons for that and it also stems from the different environments (mountain ie avalanche work vs lowland) or training standards (airscenting vs groundscenting). Same with police who favour multi-purpose breeds. I ve started comparing the SAR groundscenting test vs HV for example. The work is different in that the scents in SAR are more subtle and there is more contamination in urban areas. However the dog is not expected to communicate anything he finds on the trail to the handler. I also think scent hounds are better suited for most of the SAR work, but they re also very difficult to get for non hunters. It is the general tendancy though now to introduce scent hounds. French police have successful bloodhound teams for example. Many SAR teams on the continent work with HSV, Brandlbracken, etc. I called some to ask how they got the dogs and quite a few are rehomed from hunters.
 
Old thread I know but that s the project I m getting into. Historically most SAR teams worked with utility / sheep breeds. There are different reasons for that and it also stems from the different environments (mountain ie avalanche work vs lowland) or training standards (airscenting vs groundscenting). Same with police who favour multi-purpose breeds. I ve started comparing the SAR groundscenting test vs HV for example. The work is different in that the scents in SAR are more subtle and there is more contamination in urban areas. However the dog is not expected to communicate anything he finds on the trail to the handler. I also think scent hounds are better suited for most of the SAR work, but they re also very difficult to get for non hunters. It is the general tendancy though now to introduce scent hounds. French police have successful bloodhound teams for example. Many SAR teams on the continent work with HSV, Brandlbracken, etc. I called some to ask how they got the dogs and quite a few are rehomed from hunters.
I know of a couple of teams in Germany working HS very successfully for the police, regards Wayne.
 
Hi Wayne,
After doing lot of reading around here I figured I might end up chatting with you! Any idea how they got them? I read they put a request to the formal channels and it took them years to get 3 dogs... I ve been looking at Brandlbracken too and it s just as difficult even for hunter to get any of these dogs other than for hunting purposes.
 
Hi Wayne,
After doing lot of reading around here I figured I might end up chatting with you! Any idea how they got them? I read they put a request to the formal channels and it took them years to get 3 dogs... I ve been looking at Brandlbracken too and it s just as difficult even for hunter to get any of these dogs other than for hunting purposes.
I will send you a pm, regards Wayne
 
Flipping that on its head....It makes you wonder why more border collies aren't used for deer tracking.
I m curious to hear how it is here, but in Vaud, Switzerland, the law is very strict with regards to dogs allowed to hunt (apologise for Google translate):
Types of hunting dogs (law, art. 54) [
3
]
1 Only pointers, dachshunds, terriers, vocal hounds, retrieval dogs, game-raising dogs, blood finding dogs, Nordic hunting dogs and crossbreeds of these breeds can be used for hunting.
1bis After hearing the service in charge of veterinary affairs, the service regulates the education of hunting dogs and their use, in particular for research, arrest and reporting, burrow hunting and boar hunting.
2 It is in particular forbidden to use potentially dangerous dogs and crossbreeds of these breeds, as well as dangerous dogs, within the meaning of the law on the police of dogs.
3 Red dogs trained for blood research and kept on a tether are authorized, as are barking or bringsel dogs of Red.
4 Depending on the requirements of the shooting plan, the department may authorize the use of specially trained dogs for the practice of particular hunts.
5 Each hunting dog must wear a collar on which is clearly indicated the telephone number of the owner of the animal, with the exception of dogs used in the water or used during burrow hunting.
 
Flipping that on its head....It makes you wonder why more border collies aren't used for deer tracking.
I never think collies have great noses.

Another big draw back might be in general terms them seem quite a sensitive breed to noise.
So the rifle shots might not be ideal, equally probably few collies will have any gun sensitivity training.

I'm guessing they still use collies as don't know much better, I would imagine an hpr would be the ideal breed ( decent quartering/range plus good nose both grind and air scent), but possibly just too hard to train to a high enough standard.
When these SAR dog teams were set up they're would be next to no hprs in this country so have refined it too work with wot they had.

I know when we his for them they just quartered the whole hill/area hunting for us.
I don't think they would even tell the team's wot track we were on and would not have any scent items of us.
I take it for a scent hound to follow ur trail u need something of yours with ur scent on it?
 
I worked SAR dogs before I had my BGS. As said there's a big difference between searching large areas for any human using air scent and trailing a specific human's ground scent. A good dog will be able to switch between the 2 as required. Hounds can be excellent at both and are much better at trailing than collies etc but require a more 'sensitive / adaptable' trainer & handler. In the UK most searching is quartering large areas for air scent and I'm not sure it's worth the hassle of training a hound although IMO in the right hands they could possibly be allot better. There are people using BGS & HS for SAR and law enforcement tracking, I know a UK trainer that rates them for law enforcement but complained that you can't get the handlers that are willing / able to work with hounds
 
From my experience hunting that's what we expected from a good hunting dog, to switch between the two when needed. But when it comes to SAR and passing the qualifications, which one do you start with? My guess is airscent then groundscent? Have you come across a SAR standard qualified groundscent dog?
 
From my experience hunting that's what we expected from a good hunting dog, to switch between the two when needed. But when it comes to SAR and passing the qualifications, which one do you start with? My guess is airscent then groundscent? Have you come across a SAR standard qualified groundscent dog?
Air scenting Is a small window or getting close and a hound is instinctive to work the floor, of course they will naturally work air scent but it isn’t necessary to train for this, ground scent and building up to longevity is however and does take time, building the dogs knowledge, backtracking other tracks crossing the one you want finding a way out of a lot of disturbance has to be built up, using a hound for tracking wild deer or boar and using tracking shoes is easy to see the dog knows it’s a false track we use different people to lay tracks but the dog knows, we also work real natural tracks which is also key, for what your wanting I would say spending time on ground scenting would be the main aim like what we strive for, anything else is quite easy for scent hounds, obviously there are things to work on with terrain holding scent for longer but working the ground is what a scent hound does most, only in the closing stages will it switch or give indication to be let loose but this comes from the training instilled in ground work first not air scent, if you want to go this route a scent hound is not the dog for you, what you will find with the hounds is varying degrees of how a dog works, slow methodical with a deep nose, by that I mean it’s nose is scraping the dirt or dog that works quickly but holds its head higher, you can alter the dog a little to get what you want but these are powerful dogs, there is much to learn with them and most don’t understand what they want from one, think about what you want and give us some ideas to help regards Wayne
 
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