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Thread: Email from Lead Action Group.

  1. #1

    Email from Lead Action Group.

    This week's Shooting Times reports that an email thought to be from the Chairman of the LAG (John Swift, ex BASC Chief Executive) indicates that he supports a 'phased out and eventual elimination of lead based ammunition'. I've been a long standing member of BASC, and have posted in support of them on SD many times. If this is correct, however, I can't help feeling badly let down by someone whose salary my sub's helped pay. He may no longer be involved in BASC, but it still leaves a bitter taste.
    Last edited by Moonraker68; 11-02-2015 at 21:17.

  2. #2
    As long as they phase it out over the next couple of centuries then I don't mind.
    Knowledge is knowing that a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not using it in a fruit salad.

    Amateurs practice until they get it right. Professionals practice until they never get it wrong.

  3. #3
    Haven't Norway (?) just repealed a ban on lead ammo? (.....sure I read that somewhere!). Shouldn't BASC be using that as leverage? And isn't this the time for the NEW Chief Exec to show his mettle? (<= do you see what I did there??)
    Nothing is worse than having an itch you can never scratch

    "...Nicely just doesn't cut the cheese....." A new twist on management-speak courtesy of a colleague.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by merlin View Post
    Haven't Norway (?) just repealed a ban on lead ammo? (.....sure I read that somewhere!).
    Yes, here's one article mentioning it:
    BASC chairman Alan Jarrett welcomes Norway lead shot ruling

  5. #5
    I absolutely agree with you on all counts.

    However, the non lead thing does fascinate me. I'm sure there are a number of people on this forum who swear by Barnes bullets. I'm not one of them, never tried, as quite happy with my lead ones, but a lot of experienced stalkers swear they do an excellent job.

    When you get into the physics of it all, non lead bullets all have a lower specific density than lead. No one has started making bullets out of metals like Bismuth yet to my knowledge. So a 180 grain .30 cal bullet made of copper has to be longer than it's lead alternative to reach the same weight. Length in a bullet is a good thing, offering higher BC's if designed correctly yet retaining the same SD. What's not to like about that.

    The argument therefore has to be about penetration and expansion. The Barnes bullets are claimed to retain 90% plus of their weight and I think Nosler claim the same sort of thing for their E-Tip. Penetration is not an issue in that case. They are definitely going through. So the issue must be expansion.

    The way the Barnes open up their petals is quite spectacular. Perhaps they don't give quite as much frontal area when expanded as a well mushroomed Partition, but is this a design thing or a factor of the metal used? Could they be improved? Probably.

    The only thing I would question is the use of copper bullets in slower calibres. The all copper bullets expand best at high velocity. Fire a 180 grain from a .308 at a beast 300 meters away and terminal velocity is going to be in the region of 2100 fps. Expansion at that speed is not great with a copper bullet. Send a 140 grain down the road from a 7mm Rem mag and terminal velocity will be more like 2500 fps. Expansion at that pace is pretty good so there shouldn't be an issue.

    I think we could probably all live with copper bullets, but we will have to go for a light for calibre bullet to get the speed for expansion or typically go for faster calibres if we want to keep the SD. I think manufacturers should have plenty of scope to improve bullet design, both in terms of optimising BC and improving expansion.

    Long term I see no reason why we shouldn't move away from lead, IF indeed it is that bad for the environment and our diets, but the bullet manufacturers are not ready yet. Given time hopefully they will be.

    Just my opinion. I'm sure there will be a queue to shoot down my logic
    So much to learn and so little time left

  6. #6
    can anyone tell me if any deaths can be attributed to eating lead shot or bullet fragments ?

  7. #7
    The E mail could not have been written by anyone that shoots as it states that lead cartridge and the non toxic replacement are of comparable price.
    How is 7 for 25 and 35 for 25 comparable.

  8. #8
    Steel is comparable price to lead and sometimes cheaper.

    The lead shot thing is a tricky 1, they're are so many alterior motives and bitching going on behind the scenes.

    If John Swift has said that its a disgrace,(but it would also not surprise me if that is not the case and has been leaked/edited malicously?) it's also a disgrace that BASC don't have a proper reppresentative on the group.
    BASC have quite rightly said no change unless there is UK led scientific evidence there is a problem, i really hope they stick to that.

  9. #9
    I have switched from bismuth to steel, it certainly isn't any worse when it comes to killing ducks vs bismuth. However neither are as effective as lead and I do believe that there is an animal welfare issue as both lead to a higher number of injured birds. The biggest problem with steel is that it is the devil' sown job getting it with a fibre wad. That precludes its use in the majority of cases.

  10. #10
    Distinguished Member Ronin's Avatar
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    Oct 2014
    Lancs / Cumbria Border
    Ive used copper bullets extensively for all my stalking for a number of years.

    I shoot a few deer a year of the four larger species.

    One thing with copper (cost aside) - which isn't an issue when you cop are the outlay of the bullet against the value of the carcass...

    Back to the point - you absolutely MUST use on average 20 - 30 grain LIGHTER bullet weight than conventional bullets.

    If you don't, you will not achieve the velocity required for down range expansion and they pencil through.

    So if you're using 308 and 150 grain, you need 120 g copper

    6.5mm and 130 grain, id suggest 100 grain copper

    etc etc

    They work, and work very well, but you need to have the velocity to get them to work properly...

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