Security of Shotgun Cartridges

Patterdale Terrier

Well-Known Member
Facts:
Victim of crime has car stolen and tells the police a box of 25 x cartridges were on the back seat;
Car is recovered the next day together with the cartridges intact;
Victim of crime receives an unannounced visit by police to check gun security. All in order;
Victim of crime receives a letter from Chief of police warning him his certificate(s) may be revoked because his suitability is in question.

Your comments would be appreciated. Has he done anything wrong? How would the police defend a challenge on appeal in court or if it does not go to court if the victim of crime tries to clear his name. Have the police any powers in the circumstances?

Thanks
 
Smacks of police out of control. The letter should be highlighted to the PCC by
No warning letter should be issued, this is not a suitability issue.

do you have a copy of the letter which force??
 
I don't think any offences have been committed. The law merely says that when purchasing cartridges you have to have a shotgun certificate and the seller has to see it. You don't even need to have a certificate to possess them. Neither is there any legislation specifying security of cartridges.

However, anyone who leaves his car with a box of cartridges in plain view on the back seat is asking for it to fall into the hands of some unsavoury characters.

You don't say whether the car was locked and where the keys were. Or indeed where the car was. A spur of the moment joyride, which this appears to be, with car security these days is generally committed where the car is unlocked and the keys are present. So if the car is left where cartridges are in plain view on the back seat, the vehicle is unlocked and the keys are with it, I think the police will at least consider whether this person is a fit and proper person to have a certificate. Shouldn't like to guess the outcome of those deliberations.
 
Can't see that any offence has been committed. No requirement for shotgun carts to be locked away so you're ok on that. Personally I always leave mine out of sight and in a locked briefcase in the boot whilst travelling, but that's not a requirement. It may be different it this was a habit, and he wasn't going out shooting, but if he had a reasonable excuse for why they were in the car in the first place he should be in the clear. I could possibly understand the check of security, just as standard practice, but if everything was fine with that I fail to see how they can take it further. I think most forces, as well as basc etc. recommend having them out of sight and away from temptation both in the home and whilst travelling, but those are just recommendations to the best of my knowledge.
 
You are all singing my song up to now. Thanks.
Vehicle was locked, keys stolen from house in a burglary. Vehicle recovered 100 miles away used in another crime.
Not sure if that changes anything but as a victim of crime does he need this type of fuss???
 
I'm pretty sure that the police would rather not have ammunition fall into the hands of criminals and that Is what happened.
You can't expect them to be pleased. The more this sort of thing happens the more likely that shotgun ammunition will be legally required to be locked up the same as section 1.
The logic of this is inescapable.
 
I'm pretty sure that the police would rather not have ammunition fall into the hands of criminals and that Is what happened.
You can't expect them to be pleased. The more this sort of thing happens the more likely that shotgun ammunition will be legally required to be locked up the same as section 1.
The logic of this is inescapable.

To be fair....when pigeon shooting I usually take a slab (250) then fill my cartridge bag (120-130) take the long trip to the hide and get on with my day...at some point I might need some more rounds so I head back to the truck with as many pigeons I can carry.
If I was unlucky and some scrote nicked the truck with half a slab then would I be in the same position, given the rounds were in the cab out of sight and on the farm headland....

Tim.243
 
Under 'Security of Firearms and Ammunition' in the Home Office Guidelines it clearly states that shotgun cartridges are not covered by the same legislation as Section One ammunition, it does however advise they should be stored safely, it does not however prescribe or define what 'safely' is, nevertheless the dictionary describes it as 'Secure from liability to harm,injure or danger.

I would suggest though that a reasonable person would agree that leaving them on the back seat of the car unattended is not heeding the advice of the Home Office Guidance and storing them safely, hence that's possibly the reason for the visit and subsequent warning letter.

I'm not saying this is definitely the case but it is my personal interpretation of the guidance.
 
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The OP just refers to the cartridges being on the back seat. Nothing about them being in plain view, they may have been under a coat or in a bag...Moreover as the keys were taken in a burglary and the cartridges were still in the car when it was recovered, the visibility or otherwise seems a bit irrelevant to the incident.

I can't really understand how something in a locked (and possibly alarmed) car can be construed as being anything other than reasonably secure. Sure we know cars are sometimes broken into and/or stolen, but bank vaults are also sometimes broken into...

But then I also can't understand why the insurers will cavil at burglary claims if there are no locks on the window frames either…haven't they heard of hammers being able to smash glass?

Alan
 
Under the circumstances as updated, I would think that it would be extremely harsh to suggest that this makes the victim of this burglary an unfit person to hold a certificate. There is an argument that says perhaps that box of carts was more secure locked up in the house, (but then again, the house was burgled) but you cannot really say they were being kept insecurely.

I don't think that you can criticise the police for looking at any circumstances where firearms/ammunition has fallen into the wrong hands, which is all they are doing at present. But hopefully they will come to a reasonable and proportionate conclusion.

Hands up those who haven't left shotgun cartridges in their vehicle - at a shoot, getting fuel, going for a leak on a long journey or perhaps the odd one has slid down between the seats at some time.
 
Alan / Pedro,
You both make some good points and I agree with much of what you have written. I'm only playing devils advocate in order to give a different perspective on things, hopefully things will work out for the lad in the end.
 
certainly i cant point the finger at the victim. I know if I check through my truck i'll find odd cartridges in various gauges, similarly at the bottom of tool box , kitchen rubbish drawer and jacket pockets. Also potentillay .22rf under truck mats and a mix of centre fire ammo in my cabinet from guests rifles that don't match my FA, that just seem to accumulate over time.
 
I doubt very much it will go further than this.

Dumb to leave them on the back seat. Locked in the boot probably has less of a careless connotation.

I often tell my kids and wife off for leaving purses and Nintendo's in the back of my car. Might not be of much value but not worth having my truck broken into for them. A £5 box of shells might otherwise just excite some Jeb End to do the same.
 
certainly i cant point the finger at the victim. I know if I check through my truck i'll find odd cartridges in various gauges, similarly at the bottom of tool box , kitchen rubbish drawer and jacket pockets. Also potentillay .22rf under truck mats and a mix of centre fire ammo in my cabinet from guests rifles that don't match my FA, that just seem to accumulate over time.

Maybe time for a spring clean on the cabinet to get rid of unauthorised ammo?
 
And it also begs the question of when the car was stolen. If you were on the way back from shooting with your kit in the car and you had taken reasonable precautions when had stopped for a meal etc.. But if you hadn't been shooting for two months that's another matter.

My my advice is to just accept the letter, take heed, but don't raise it. Starting to write lots of letters etc will just inflame the situation and keep things at the top of the pile. All the OP has said is that is noting and reminding re shotgun cartridges being stored, in the same way when I was taken to court for a speeding offence the FEO did say to me that it's noted and that if I keep getting tickets they will question my suitability - and quite rightly in my opinion.
 
And it also begs the question
Thursday morning pedantry:
Beg The Question // Get it right.


About the shotgun cartridges, though - what are the Police trying to say?

As we know, lawful possession of shotgun cartridges is not limited to certificate holders, and there if no requirement in law for them to be stored securely.
Their presence on the back seat of a secure car would seem to be neither here nor there, just like my finding two 12bore cartridges in the pocket of my coat while out in town, for example.

If the cartridges were on view, they might attract a thief either because he wanted the cartridges (though I suspect that the rate-limitng step on armed crimed in this country is not the availability of shotgun cartridges), or because the presence of the cartridges indicated the likely presesence of something more desirable for an armed criminal, such as a gun. In the latter respect, the box of cartridges acts no differently to a BASC sticker or a pair of ear-defenders and a Barbour jacket.

Would the police, I wonder, be right to send warnings to certificate holders for leaving something that might actually be dangerous per se in a vehicle - chisels, or a chainsaw, for example?

Heym is right, I think, that the police should keep an eye on unlawful behaviour, such as speeding, by certificate holders - but there was as far as we can tell nothing unlawful about the storage of these cartidges.

Heym might also be right that it is better not to make a fuss about the letter: perhaps the police do have a point, although one which did perhaps not warrant such heavy-handed raising. If I had been sent it, I'd be discussing it with BASC, I think.



 
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Playing Devils Advocate as Cadex did above, I don't think the police want ammunition going into a possible criminal supply chain and ending up in the hands of someone like Raoul Moat.
I'd hate to be in the responsibility chain for something that he did.
We all need to take care. Going into denial as some folk seem to have done doesn't help.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denial
 
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