Fox....variation re definition between forces

deerly departed

Well-Known Member
TVP apparently say fox comes under vermin so do not condition your FAC for fox.
If I went to shoot in another forces area..say Surrey or Hampshire and they dont agree that fox is classed as vermin and state that your rifle/ FAC needs to be conditioned.....where do you stand
 
TVP apparently say fox comes under vermin so do not condition your FAC for fox.
If I went to shoot in another forces area..say Surrey or Hampshire and they dont agree that fox is classed as vermin and state that your rifle/ FAC needs to be conditioned.....where do you stand

Page 123 of the guidance notes.........!!


123
Quarry Shooting

Note that the absence of a calibre in the table below
should not preclude it being considered by the Police. The purpose of this table is as a guide to establish initial "good reason".

Paragraphs 13.9 and 13.16-13.18 should be read in conjunction with this table.

Cartridges

Muzzle energy (ft lb)

Vermin & ground game and other small quarry
3
Fox and other medium quarry
4
Deer and other large quarry
5
Dangerous Game
6
.177-.25 Air Rifles (FAC)
1

.22 RF

.17 Mach 2

.17 HMR

.22 WMR

.17 Remington
2

.22 Hornet
2

.204

>12 ft lb

100-200

650-700

800-900

Yes

No

(Yes for .17 Remington & HMR, .22 Hornet and WMR – also .22 RF in certain circumstance (see 13.25))

No

No

.17 Remington2

.218 Bee

.22 Hornet2

.22-.250

.220 Swift

.222 Remington

5.56mm/.223

.243

6mm PPC

6mm/.244

800-900

600-800

650-700

1,350-1,500

1,300-1,900

900-1,000

1,000-1,400

1,600-2,000

1,300-1,800

1,800-2,100

No

(Yes for .17 Remington & HMR, .22 Hornet and WMR)

Yes

No7

(Yes for Muntjac and Chinese water deer in England and Wales with .222 and greater, .243 & 6mm/.244)

Yes in Scotland for Roe Deer with .222 and greater.)

No

.243

6mm/.244

.25-06

6.5mm x 55/.256

.257 Weatherby

.264

.270

7mm/.275

.284

.30-06

.303

7.62mm x 51/.308

.444 Marlin

.45-70

1,600-2,000

1,800-2,100

2,000-2,400

1,800-2,400

2,400-2,900

1,600-2,900

2,450-2,700

2,200-2,400

2,250-2,800

2,600-3,000

1,900-2,400

2,400-2,600

2,500-3,000

1,600-2,400

No

No

(Yes for .243 & 6mm/.244)

(see also paragraph 13.25)

Yes

(but see paragraph 13.30-13.34)



Tim.243
 
There's always inconsistancies. Even now that the college of police state that all forces must be uniform and follow home office guidelines, some still don't listen.... HO guidelines basically say that the initial quarry species given for a license grant is just that, initial good reason...and that after that, no condition should limit what quarry species you can shoot ie. any other lawful quarry.
My licence reads: The firearms shall be used for the shooting of deer and any other lawful quarry, subject to the legality of the calibre.
I have .22lr, .22wmr, .222, .243 and .30-06. That's how Sussex do things.
 
thats what TVP condition with primary (ie Deer) and AOLQ if all you shoot is Fox I would expect Fox and AOLQ

Yes, this ^^

I'm in Hampshire and my condition is "Deer/Fox and AOLQ" as I stated on appplication that the primary use was deer with some foxing, and then target shooting as a tertiary use (as I am a member of a TR shooting club). So I got the condition above plus a separate one for target use.

Do you have AOLQ on your cert? If so then you should be covered.
 
Any conditions are to indicate good reason NOT limit what quarry you can shoot

if you get a 243 for deer there is nothing to stop you shooting foxes or crows with it, so long as deer is your primary good reason
 
Reading the guidance, I'd say than unless the condition says ".....shall ONLY be used for....." then you can also do anything else you want with it within reason.
It is not the job of the police to decide who may or may not shoot particular legal quarry animals and the guidance is explicit that "Forces must ensure that where additional conditions are applied to certificates that they are kept to a minimum and are only applied where they are both proportionate and necessary."
I can't imagine how it could be proportionate AND necessary to permit an applicant to own a rifle for hunting and then claim that the police are entitled to govern what he may or may not hunt beyond the provisions of the relevant game and wildlife legislation.
Is there any case history on this?
 
TVP apparently say fox comes under vermin so do not condition your FAC for fox.
If I went to shoot in another forces area..say Surrey or Hampshire and they dont agree that fox is classed as vermin and state that your rifle/ FAC needs to be conditioned.....where do you stand

The conditions on your FAC are the ones you must abide by, not the conditions that would be issued had you lived elsewhere.
Years ago I got in all sorts of trouble for admitting shooting foxes with my .22lr, while on holiday in Somerset, at the time that was fine
down there and would have been allowed had my FAC been issued down there.
My FEO had fifty fits when I mentioned it while asking for fox to be added to my .22lr. Lol

Neil. :)
 
It sounds to me as though your FEO was out of line. Unless he was able to claim the foxes suffered unduly, there's absolutely no legal restriction on what you can shoot a fox with. Even if you'd shot one with an air rifle and it died immediately, it wouldn't be an offence. It would be a bloody silly thing to do. The conditions seem to exist only to establish and record that "good reason" for possessing the rifle exists and that activity should actually be carried out to retain the "good reason". I'd be inclined to challenge a belief by the police that it entitles them to limit hunting and vermin control to a greater extent than the law provides.
Anyone any thoughts? Some clarification and clear definition around this seems in order.
 
The last time I requested a renewal/variation, AOLQ -which would include Fox, for the correct caliber- was not granted in Gloucestershire, the rationale of which, according to the Licensing Dept. , was possible confusion due to the badger cull. So 'Fox' had to be named and conditioned for each (suitable) rifle. Once that misunderstanding was cleared up I did get 'Fox' on my FAC for both .343W and .308W. I know that in some other Counties 'Fox' is classed as vermin.
You are asking 'where do you stand'? What really matters is where does your Licensing Manager stand? So find out, and go with the flow.
 
Fox, like deer is put down to show good reason for larger calibers.

Apparently, on my renewal I am getting deer and AOLQ for everything. This is to simplify things.

So, you can't have a .243 for vermin unless it includes larger vermin requiring that caliber.
 
The last time I requested a renewal/variation, AOLQ -which would include Fox, for the correct caliber- was not granted in Gloucestershire, the rationale of which, according to the Licensing Dept. , was possible confusion due to the badger cull. So 'Fox' had to be named and conditioned for each (suitable) rifle. Once that misunderstanding was cleared up I did get 'Fox' on my FAC for both .343W and .308W. I know that in some other Counties 'Fox' is classed as vermin.
You are asking 'where do you stand'? What really matters is where does your Licensing Manager stand? So find out, and go with the flow.

What we'd all like is for the police to stand in the same place. It's ridiculous having a situation where the police routinely ignore the guidance (as in your case) in various and imaginative ways putting silly, pointless conditions on licences for reasons which have no legal basis.
In your case, the guidance is quite explicitly clear that AOLQ would have been all that was needed and that anything extra is not necessary and proportionate. The existing separate law on shooting badgers covers any possible issue relating to the badger cull. It was not necessary to add that condition because badgers aren't legal quarry, except if you are covered by a licence. The badger cull licences are not general licences, so you could never have found yourself in the situation where you might have been inclined to shoot one through confusion. You've ended up being limited from shooting other legal quarry - or not, if they didn't put "only" on the condition. It's a pig's breakfast.

This perceived view that firearms law is a mess and needs to be reorganised and new acts passed must surely arise largely from the activities of individual polices forces going rogue like this. The problem is that members of the public don't feel they can freely challenge dodgy opinions without being victimised afterwards, which says something pretty damning about our level of trust in these forces.
 
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Dont know the exact wording but my shooting partner who is with west mercia has a condition instructing him to NOT shoot badgers, together with his normal conditions of deer and AOLQ and Fox and AOLQ for all his rifles.

Ian.
 
Dont know the exact wording but my shooting partner who is with west mercia has a condition instructing him to NOT shoot badgers, together with his normal conditions of deer and AOLQ and Fox and AOLQ for all his rifles.

Ian.

If they're going to start listing all the things we're NOT allowed to shoot, they'll have to deliver our certificates in an artic :eek:
 
Dont know the exact wording but my shooting partner who is with west mercia has a condition instructing him to NOT shoot badgers, together with his normal conditions of deer and AOLQ and Fox and AOLQ for all his rifles.

Ian.

That's very odd. When the FEO came to visit, did your shooting partner have a black and white doormat?
 
There's always inconsistancies. Even now that the college of police state that all forces must be uniform and follow home office guidelines, some still don't listen.... HO guidelines basically say that the initial quarry species given for a license grant is just that, initial good reason...and that after that, no condition should limit what quarry species you can shoot ie. any other lawful quarry.
My licence reads: The firearms shall be used for the shooting of deer and any other lawful quarry, subject to the legality of the calibre.
I have .22lr, .22wmr, .222, .243 and .30-06. That's how Sussex do things.

And Sussex are doing it wrong as well!

If the FLD applied the HO Guidance correctly your condition wouldn't mention anything about the 'legality' of a 'calibre' (which is a nonsense anyway as calibre is just a measure of bore size).

The standard 'Quarry Shooting' condition in Appendix 3 can be modified to make it applicable to all firearms on a certificate by using this:

"An asterisk conditions specific firearms on a certificate but may be replaced by the phrase, “The
firearms and ammunition…..” where a single condition applies to all firearms (and ammunition) on
the certificate."

Then it is up the the FAC holder to make decisions on the suitabilty and legality of using his firearms for shooting X,Y or Z quarry species - which accords with other sections of the Guidance including 13.9 and 10.48.

Nothing about creating their own version for whatever misguided reason.
 
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