BASC Head Measuring?

About four or five years ago BASC members started asking us for a measuring service so we developed one, in other words there was a demand in the market, we developed the service, and the service is well used.

We do not expect anyone to follow our lead, there are / have been several measuring systems out there. Others will of course do as they see fit.

The CiC for example can develop their measuring system as they see fit and to suit their customer’s demands and needs, just as BASC will do.

People who shoot a medal head can take their head to any organisation they choose as I have said above, their money their choice.

BASC has not taken head measuring away from CiC, to the very best of my knowledge they are still measuring plenty of heads giving certificates and selling medals, but I stand to be corrected.

I hope that answers the questions Simon, but if not please let me know.

David
 
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Simon

There was a thread on this a while back: Trophy measuring

​willie_gunn

Thank you Dom,

The silence was deafening was it not? ;)

A friend had the good fortune to shoot a fantastic roe a while back. He went and had it measured by the doyen of roe, Richard Prior, who was kind enough to tell him how big it was in comparison to all that had been measured in the past, and it was well up there. Will the BASC system add to this knowledge base? I wonder................

Simon
 
Thank you Dom,

The silence was deafening was it not? ;)

A friend had the good fortune to shoot a fantastic roe a while back. He went and had it measured by the doyen of roe, Richard Prior, who was kind enough to tell him how big it was in comparison to all that had been measured in the past, and it was well up there. Will the BASC system add to this knowledge base? I wonder................

Simon

To be honest Simon
i can't see why not
wot is different to measuring a head the CIC way , that BASC measures are not competent at
 
The problem is that with two measuring systems it is difficult to keep a definitive list. I got mine measured by Richard Prior, there's no better authority.
 
David seems to have taken offence to my post which was meant to be light hearted, so I will try to be a bit more serious this time, its not a question of BASC being incompetent, trophy measuring is not that difficult if you follow the formula, and I am sure their measurer's are every bit as competent as the CIC measurer's.

And if people want to use BASC thats fine I have no issue with that what so ever,my point is I have found very little enthusiasm for the BASC system from the stalkers I have spoken with, most of whom have been Europeans its true
the general consensus being why do we need another measuring system when CIC is universally recognised
especially by another system that won't be recognised anywhere but the UK.

I can see that removal of the 90 day period may generate some interest from UK stalkers , only time will tell

David you were right it does not matter in the least and certainly not to me which system someone chooses to use
provided of course there is still the opportunity at the fairs for us who wish to use the CIC system , am I not correct in thinking that the CIC measuring usually took place in the BASC tent.

David can you give me a good reason why we should change to the BASC system, what are the advantages I can see the disadvantages mainly the fact of lack of recognition, but what advantage if any, I am prepared to listen to a reasoned argument.
 
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I can assure you no offence was taken.

Those who prefer the CiC system and certificate and medal are free of course to go that path, and those who want to use the BASC system likewise , its as simple as that really.

David
 
Bogtrotter,

I can answer your edits/ points i missed separately if that’s OK.

I can't remember the CiC measuring in the BASC stand at shows, I think they can be found in the BDS tent? However, I honestly did not notice if they were at the Gamekeepers Fair this weekend, the BDS were certainly there but not sure about CiC.

If your client’s want to use the CiC measuring service then that’s exactly what you should continue to offer / promote.

David
 
The problem is that with two measuring systems it is difficult to keep a definitive list. I got mine measured by Richard Prior, there's no better authority.

Paul, I must admit that I feel you have struck the whole point of the issue, will it benefit the sport in keeping a definitive list of head measuring?

I have yet to hear from anyone the benefits of the BASC system for the long term knowledge base of our sport! Which is strange, don't you think?

​Simon
 
I had my lovely bronze measured by RP and I have a potential big silver which I shot last year which I will have measured under CIC rules. Why BASC cannot measure to CIC rules I cannot understand. Then all trophies will get logged onto one internationally recognised database.

D
 
Simon,

People will be free to use which ever system they want to as I have said.

Records will, of course be kept and this is important as stated on our web site in the Trophy Measuring section.

For those who want to use the CiC measurers at shows by the way, here is a list of where they will be in 2013:
Scottish Game Fair - Scone - 5-7 July 2013
CLA Game Fair - Ragley Hall - 19-21 July 2013
Moy Fair - Inverness - 2/3 August 2013
Midland Game Fair - Weston Park, Shropshire - 14/15 September 2013

Ultimately, as I have said, this was BASC member driven, members wanted it , BASC delivered it, it was as simple as that.

David
 
You can see the BASC measured heads in sporting rifle, nice to look at and learn what makes a good head, might stop a lot of stuff getting shot too early
 
Simon,

People will be free to use which ever system they want to as I have said.

Records will, of course be kept and this is important as stated on our web site in the Trophy Measuring section.

For those who want to use the CiC measurers at shows by the way, here is a list of where they will be in 2013:
Scottish Game Fair - Scone - 5-7 July 2013
CLA Game Fair - Ragley Hall - 19-21 July 2013
Moy Fair - Inverness - 2/3 August 2013
Midland Game Fair - Weston Park, Shropshire - 14/15 September 2013

Ultimately, as I have said, this was BASC member driven, members wanted it , BASC delivered it, it was as simple as that.

David

David,

So your members actually wanted a system that is unrecognised internationally and incompatable with the fully recognised european wide measuring service (CIC)? Is that a fair summing up of the situation?

How does this benefit the historic and future collection of information on deer heads?

It does not make sense to me, but I am a bear of very little brain and it is probably beyond my ken. I have a feeling this is a commercial decision, and nothing to do with the long term health of stalking in the UK. How long will it be before someone sets up a medal issuing service that will be with an even rarer metal making up the "Gold Standard". There is nothing to stop them, as BASC have demonstrated, but will it benefit stalking? I think not, but as I say, I am a bear of very little brain.

Simon
 
Oh my giddy Aunt 'We're' off again! :D

Thank you Willie G for that initial link - very useful and your post on that thread was extremely helpful. Quite aside from working solidly toward answering the originating post it provided a great balance - seems to me the thread has thrown up much that is the best and worst in SD.

Luckily the thread has gone 'heated' so there will be few readers by now, so I feel ( its Andy - dont tell John I'm writing ) that I should - with due shame - confess I just can't seem to get very excited about 'Trophies' - sorry, sorry, I know - :coat: It gets worse - I'm a supposed professional - cant find a suitable emoticon for Seppuku action.

Dont get me wrong, I have a good number of assorted heads dotted around walls and I can readily share joy with a happy client. Equally, the clients that feel their stalk was ruined because the possible Silver at 400 yds transpired to be a Bronze at 60 yds - though they still took the option to shoot it - leave that old hollow feeling. Its easy to lapse into elitism - anyone who has met me will appreciate I'm about as elite as a house brick - its pure and simple my feelings. Others have different ones and an equal entitlement to them.

So the caveat must continue to say this isnt an area I pay a great deal of attention to and any views/ comments made should be seen in that context. - ie ignored by everyone! ;)

Reading this thread, one could be surprised that the BASC scheme is several years old, not a new thing. Although reference to the above-noted link will cover changes etc. My understanding is that there were several issues with the CIC scheme and, from what little reading I have done - and purely guessing here - several personalty clashes along the way amongst measurers and the CIC governors. Given the constant state of personalty conflict on here and across stalking - and lets face it every single other human endeavour - that isnt really an earth shattering revelation.

As I understand it, the BASC scheme has an avowed intent to capture various data that was otherwise being lost and achieve that by a difference in approach - whilst retaining a level of meaningful comparison between the systems. How's that going?

What's the point in any of it? From the above, I'm probably not the best to comment. But even so, I can appreciate there is a commercial aspect in terms of estate:client interaction and trophy fees. Loathe it or love it, it exists and until human nature changes radically, will continue. Within that, whilst it is not for me, if someone derives additional / enhanced pleasure from a gong of whatever hew, more power to their ribbon. Perhaps of higher moral tone and logic, a year on year sensibly consistent capture of data allows those who wish to do so an opportunity to measure the effectiveness of a management strategy. My gut feeling is the latter doesn't get overly used, I'd love to be wrong and at least the data will be there for the future. So far so good enough reasons.

If someone is new to this question, to what extent will they have been informed, educated and possibly enriched from reading this thread to date? Not a lot. Anyone on SD for 15 minutes will already be adequately acquainted with what a bunch of self serving, money grabbing scammers BASC are ( from a tongue in cheek perspective here guys ), possibly have got the T shirt, become bored and moved on to another hobby :D. For pity sake can we club together and take over the Board of BASC - then either change it to the Utopian ideal or wind it up - if for no other purpose than making 60% of SD threads more interesting!

David of BASC - I do believe some of the comments were relatively valid. A question was posed, not necessarily for BASC to answer, but once a decision was made to do so, addressing the points with facts would have possibly changed the complexion of subsequent posts - maybe not, but maybe. I can appreciate the feelings that many comments engender as you read them. Some are deliberate to goad, some deliberate to express a genuine angst - whether accurate or not and 'other'. Occasionally there are positive ones. Nothing, but nothing you can say or do is really going to change the opinions of the few. The forum is their voice as much as any other member's. Play it straight, punch the wall rather than the key board and lets the readers make up their own minds.

Obviously the single most outrageous comments here must fall to the venerable BogTrotter. There is simply no way his threats to set up as a measurer can be taken lightly. His prowess with all things mechanical is leg-end- dry, the simple thought of him at large with a bucket of water, a spring balance and caliper is the stuff of nightmares....;)
 
Simon,

Proof of the pudding is in the eating - if members did not want the BASC measuring service they :

a - would not have asked for it - but they did
b - no one would have used it - but hundreds have

The historic data is in the public domain, the BASC results have been published in Sporting Rifle and I will get them onto the BASC web site as soon as possible.

So given that, how on earth is this NOT going to benefit the historical collection of data?

It’s not purely a commercial decision as I keep saying as the majority of measures are FREE, because all first measure are FREE let’s look at an example of say a silver roe head

CicPrice
Measure - £15
Certificate - £5
Medal -£20
Measure and medal - £30

BASC price a shows - first head
Measure - free
Certificate - free
Medal £20
Measure & medal - £20

Those members who want to go onto the international CiC register will of course use the CiC system, those who don’t will use the BASC system.

Please let me know if there are any points I have misssed

David
 
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Andy i read through all that chat and must wounder are you far or against others running a measuring service. Tip of the iceberg if Boggy and others start to issue certs to deserving heads.
The Bog trotter Diamond award. :oops:
 
David

You're a fast reader!

You know, I genuinely hadnt thought about it! :oops:

I do appreciate trophies and the medal system matter to some and there's no intention to imply anything derogatory in circumstances where that occurs without a price in terms of animal welfare or hunting ethic.

So I suppose would say I am for whoever wishes to offer such a service within those bounds and the customer appreciates the difference (s) if any, and issues - such as recognition surrounding a provider.

But we are going to have a serious falling out if you continue to 'encourage' BT! :D
 
I have my first potential medal of the year in the freezer came in as part of a cull .But i am sure i could get Boggy to do it, The Scottish trophy measuring agency could come just at the right time with the referendum closing in .
 
I have my first potential medal of the year in the freezer came in as part of a cull .But i am sure i could get Boggy to do it, The Scottish trophy measuring agency could come just at the right time with the referendum closing in .

6P, I think you could be on to something, The Scottish Trophy Measuring Agency!

And why not, as long as you say you will have compatable data for the long term monitoring of heads in your part of the UK it should be equally valid.

I asked this question in good faith, and truly would have loved David from BASC to have had a perfectly valid reason for the PLATINUM award and a reassuarance that the data was compatable with CIC.

I know that Richard Prior can tell you, with CIC records he possesses, how far up the list your head may be in the all time list. I am told he has also overlaid this data on to a georaphical and geological map of the UK, so he knows what the underlying soil and rock structure is in the areas that produce the best heads. Such data must be of some interest to others.

As I have said, I will never be in a position to use this service, or I seriously doubt it. So bring on the Bog Trotter Diamond Award, it will be as valid as any of the other devalued awards.

Simon
 
Good evening Simon,

With regard to the BASC Platinum medal, we first started discussing this in late summer 2010 and spent 2011 developing the idea more as the BASC head measuring service really started to take off.

What we wanted was something that was that little bit different for the BASC product, and something that recognised truly remarkable heads, hence the Platinum, which was launched in 2012. Wouldn’t it be ironic if now CiC launched an enhanced gold or something along those lines….

As to the comparison between a BASC bronze, silver and gold, with the CiC, well as you can imagine several people have had heads measured under both systems... and guess what- a BASC bronze silver or gold head would also most likely, score bronze silver or gold with CiC.

But as I say, people can make their own choice as to which system they personally value and want to use.

I have no doubt at all that the CiC data will be of interest and value to many, just as the BASC data is to our members and others.

For someone who will never use either service you are taking a very special interest so thank you ever so much for the questions and feedback.

As always, if I have missed anything please let me know.
David
 
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