Shooting through light foliage

User00003

Well-Known Member
Hello!

I stalked a nice 6 pointer (roe) the other evening, got to 75yds and was in prone position with bipod. Buck came out and was standing broadside, but with a small/thin conifer branch hanging out and partially covering the vitals area.

I decided not to take the shot, as my mentality has been to always wait until perfectly clear and broadside shot; however, I have started to question in my mind, wether from this distance a few conifer needles, literally right next to the deer, would have been able to deflect or mutilate the bullet.

Also, getting on with late spring/early summer, the grass is getting quite long - if there's slight foilage or grass just in front of the deer, would you consider a shot? am I being too careful in my approach and thus missing opportunities, or am I being a good moral stalker?

any thoughts?
 
I come accross this all the time in the summer.
The truth is you shouldn't shoot but as summer progresses than things may get where you just are not shooting any deer.
From my experiences .243/2506 are very liable to deflect as is any fast light bullet.
My summer buck round is for my 6.5x55 with a 156RN bullet and it will get there through bracken and briar but is a very short range round about 140m's max.
Its long length round nose and slow speed seem to allow it to reach its target.
I am not suggesting you throw caution to the wind only thats my choice in the summer months.
regards john.
 
I come accross this all the time in the summer.
The truth is you shouldn't shoot but as summer progresses than things may get where you just are not shooting any deer.
From my experiences .243/2506 are very liable to deflect as is any fast light bullet.
My summer buck round is for my 6.5x55 with a 156RN bullet and it will get there through bracken and briar but is a very short range round about 140m's max.
Its long length round nose and slow speed seem to allow it to reach its target.
I am not suggesting you throw caution to the wind only thats my choice in the summer months.
regards john.

If you were unsure, then not taking the shot was absolutely the right thing to do. If the only obstruction between you and the deer was a couple of bracken fronds or a pine twig right next to the deer then you may have been ok with any calibre above 243, but if you had mis-hit the deer or even worse, lost it, you would have been unsure if it was your shot that was at fault, or if it was as a result of striking the obstruction. In short hitting anything heavier than a leaf or couple of grass blades before the deer always puts you on dodgy ground.
 
Contrary to popular believe there are no, to use a American term “bush bucking bullet”, the NRA in the US did extensive tests in the 70s using deer bullets of different weights and shapes, round nose, splitzers etc for the range of deer hunting cartridges in common use.

Using a 160gn bullet over a 100gn bullet will make little difference, think about it logically how much does a tree branch weigh as a percentage when compared to the weight of a bullet and the heavy bullet is not traveling that much quicker.

NRA conclusion was the best chance of a successful shot was to look for a clear path to the animal. The only cravat I would add is we are talking deer bullets here; thin jacketed varmint bullets driven fast will brake up on contact with foliage.

I still have to make myself think logically about this, because it is a bit counter intuitive, but a 160gn 6.5mm bullet is not a heavy bullet, most 308 uses are using 150/155gn bullets. I still think if you were to compare a 750gn 50 cal with a 50gn 22CF that the would be a noticeable difference, but the test were with commonly used deer cartridges so I would think 6mm to 8mm range.

Personally if there is grass/ferns just in front of the deer’s body no problem with a heart lung shot, never had an issue yet. Now waiting out cry from the “theoretical experts”.:evil:

ATB

Tahr
 
Norma did a big study as well some time ago and found the same.
When I said a heavy bullet I meant heavy for calibre.
As i said I wasn't condoning shooting through cover but that is my bullet of choice and i have never had issue with this in bracken or bramble.
But have seen many .243 and 25 cal rounds just not get there in similar circumstances even when "touching" a single frond.
 
I don't think it's just a question of calibre. Bullet design and speed is probably the deciding factor. I normally use a 100 grain ballistic tip out of a 25.06 going at about 3300fps which is great with a clear path but will fragment as soon as it touches pretty much anything. I had one bad episode at last light with a Muntjac at about 35m. I went for a heart/lung shot but didn't see a small green holly branch about 1cm across which was about 10m in front of the animal. It went down but screamed for a few seconds before expiring. Bit strange I thought? When I got up to it I couldn't believe the mess! The whole carcass was shredded, guts exploded, haunches and saddle all ruined! Had to bin the lot. I wouldn't fire through any cover now with that set up. You might get away with it with a more penetrating head but it is a gamble. If the cover is just in front of the animal you stand more chance of success than if the cover is just in front of you!
 
So are you saying that the Norma and the NRA studies have got it wrong? :confused:

The thing is I am shooting a fast 6mm admitally using a 100gn heavy for calibre bullet without issue.

ATB

Tahr
 
So are you saying that the Norma and the NRA studies have got it wrong? :confused:

The thing is I am shooting a fast 6mm admitally using a 100gn heavy for calibre bullet without issue.

ATB

Tahr

No are you??
I have just told you MY findings.
The norma study was shooting through birch twigs which are a little different to bracken.
Cannot comment on the NRA study.
 
No are you??
I have just told you MY findings.
The norma study was shooting through birch twigs which are a little different to bracken.
Cannot comment on the NRA study.


there is a chap on here who may have carried out some interesting work on this theory. he has not replied to date and i will pm to see if he has seen it.
i think this may end up been a case off there is always one round that does something different.
the problem is with scopes is depth perception you may never see the twig and heh who knows over the years you may have shot through twigs and bracken and never known....

f.
 
MS i had the same with my 243 a good many years back it was a greart rifle if every thng was clear but when there were blades of grass in front it was a night mare Lamping foxes in the summer April may when the grass was up had them running for long distances before they fell and like you say what a mess. Had a similar episode on a deer and that .243 varmint round went the road of a few other rifles that were not suitable. But if you think there bad try the .222,s They are in no way sutable for pushing through grass. For me it s a heavy bullet i keep away from the 50grn to the 120 grn they just donr do it at this time of year.
 
Hmmm as I see it this is like barrels they are all different. I had always heard and read just how unstable bullets became when encountering brush etc but on a zeroing session some years ago with a few rifles (.308, 6.5x55 & 7x57) on the bit of land I stalk in Sussex (when I can get down there) I was surprised to see a 2" thick hazel trunk fall sideways behind the target frame :eek: on examining it the bullets had shot it through ,it should not have been surprising as it was behind the target frame :doh:what was really surprising was you could follow the bullets path through the rest of the Hazel shrub and through the Holly behind it and so on through the "brush" and I found the bullets final destination in the roots of a large and the bank they were in on the opposite side of the gully. The bullets had made a straight line through it all. I used to have some photos of this but had to delete them from my storage account to make room for others. On one sapling a bullet had hit just off centre and split the wood out so it looked like the hole for a Chubb key yet the bullet remained on course and did not deflect as about a foot or so behind it was another small trunk and it went through that as well.

These were all normal soft points made by Speer and Hornady the lightest were the 120 grain Speers in the 6.5x55 the .308 was using Speer 165 grain hot cors and the 7x57 Hornady 139 grain SP's. It made me rethink the whole thing about bullet behavior. I once had the good fortune to grass a Muntjac doe that should have been missed. The shot was taken from a Highstand box at about 170 yards and the Doe dropped on the spot. However when we collected the carcase it became clear that the only damage on it was a small groove in the frontal chest in front of the right foreleg. There is no way she should had died from that but she did. We left her where she fell and traced the bullet path back and found a spot where there was a clump of slightly higher thicker grass and the bullet must have clipped through the very top of it. It was enough to deflect it slightly and it caused the bullet to nearly miss the beast all together :eek: the rifle was my 6.5x55 and again I was using the Speer 120 grain flat based Hot Cor bullet..

The thing I learnt is that there is no hard and fast rules when it comes to bullets encountering brush so I try whenever possible to avoid doing so. On my last stalk with John we discussed this and the use of heavy bullets and the 9.3mm came up in the conversation :cool: along with the 8mm of course getting the Police Firearms licensing to understand the use of larger heavier bullets in such circumstances to minimise the chances of deflection is another matter entirely :rolleyes: :banghead: :(.
 
Every situation is diferent but I've shot through undergrowth plenty, normally with a 270 I'd be quite happy , less so with a 22 centre fire and balistic tips, common sense prevails , if your un sure then don't shoot. It really depends on you situation , if you have a lot of deer to shoot in a limited time then you will monopolise any chance you get.
 
Hello!

I stalked a nice 6 pointer (roe) the other evening, got to 75yds and was in prone position with bipod. Buck came out and was standing broadside, but with a small/thin conifer branch hanging out and partially covering the vitals area.

I decided not to take the shot, as my mentality has been to always wait until perfectly clear and broadside shot; however, I have started to question in my mind, whether from this distance a few conifer needles, literally right next to the deer, would have been able to deflect or mutilate the bullet.

Also, getting on with late spring/early summer, the grass is getting quite long - if there's slight foliage or grass just in front of the deer, would you consider a shot? am I being too careful in my approach and thus missing opportunities, or am I being a good moral stalker?

any thoughts?
first of all yes you've done the right thing!! "if in doubt don't shoot!!!!" i think it all depends on foliage,how light or heavy it is?/is it closer to you or the target?/the projectile! is it a varmint or deer? generally slow/heavy deer round should not be a problem with foliage close to the deer (grass,reeds etc)too many variables to list!! but at the end of the day(and there will be another!!!)you are a true deer stalker!! more concerned for the deer well being,than cull records/meat on the table!!! ,or you would have just taken the shot! well done that deer stalker, PKL..COMENDABLE!!!
 
I think it is in one of the Blaser videos where they put a large sheet behind some small twigs and shoot through them and the result could best be described as "unpredictable" and "dramatic."

I suspect that is the bottom line in this, there will be times when the bullet will pass through the obstruction and continue in a straight line to the target, there will be times when it will take a deflection, there will be times when it will deform and come apart, there will be times when it will do stuff we can't even imagine. Most of the object of accurate shooting is to eliminate or correct for variables and shooting through cover just adds another variable that we can't correct for so it is generally considered bad practise. That seems fairly logical to me.
 
I think it is in one of the Blaser videos where they put a large sheet behind some small twigs and shoot through them and the result could best be described as "unpredictable" and "dramatic."

I suspect that is the bottom line in this, there will be times when the bullet will pass through the obstruction and continue in a straight line to the target, there will be times when it will take a deflection, there will be times when it will deform and come apart, there will be times when it will do stuff we can't even imagine. Most of the object of accurate shooting is to eliminate or correct for variables and shooting through cover just adds another variable that we can't correct for so it is generally considered bad practise. That seems fairly logical to me.
shooting through cover bad practice!!! well said!! another deer stalker!! top marks!!!!!!
 
I had a 70g ballistic tip in .243 hit some grass infront of a roe buck. Buck was 50yds dry grass about 1 foot infront of animal. The wound was shallow and wide and non fatal. it took three days to catch up with this deer. It was only till after the shot that I realised the grass was there.
Personally I would not take a shot intentionally with foliage in the way.
 
Not wanting to start a huge debate here, but what is the definition of a deer stalker? To me it is someone who shoots deer all be it they stalk it first.
the end result is that we kill deer effectivley, does it matter how far we've crawled?
It's up to the individual, but if we wait for everydeer to be broadside at 75 metres , no deer would be shot.

In the past the term deer stalker would only apply to someone who was employed, not someone who was scared to shoot.
 
Had a 95 grn Remi Accutip blow up on a blade of grass a few feet infront of a paper target. One largish hole off target surrounded by numerous 'shrapnel' holes.
 
Maybe I'm missing something here but I will add my tuppenceworth regardless.
It is my understanding that if when we are shooting any animal be it vermin or a deer that our first objective should be to ensure as humane a death as possible. In my mind, regardles of calibre, weight of bullet or bullet construction, to shoot through foliage of any kind is putting a risk into this happening. That to me is the be all and end all.
Dont shoot through foliage full stop.
As for the stalkers who have targets to reach, then crawl a bit further or get longer sticks to ensure you have a clear flight path for the bullet. It is no excuse to take a shot through foliage because you are behind on numbers. We have a duty when taking the life of any animal to ensure as far as we can, to do it with the least amount of risk injuring without killing.
 
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