Restrictive conditions help

MONGOOSE

Well-Known Member
Hi guys a friend is applying for his first fac has a shotgun cert for 4 years has been using rf cf rifle off and on ,has land to use around 1500 acres which has been cleared I should no as I shoot the same land ,he is applying for fac air,223,.17 hmr and 6.5x55 swede he is applying for fox,vermin etc and paid deer stalking on the swede he has never been stalking but has paid stalks booked and will do his dsc1 depending on how the application go's he and I are both B.A.S.C members......

I'm also applying for the swede for deer stalking but have had fac for 6 months i have the the other above calibres...

My mate had a visit from an feo he said he should have done 10 stalks already and 5 booked he has three booked he has got to have a mentor neither of us no any deerstalkers so can only go on paid stalks anyway also got to have a mentor for the cleared land the person who owns the land works away alot so can't practically be him.....

How can we have a mentor if we don't no anybody? we would be happy to have only whilst accompanied by experenced stalker type of condition but He won't allow it looks like I have this to come from my deer calibre application :(

Can somebody tell me where in the home office guidelines it states that conditions should not be restrictive etc and also what would you guys do in this circumstance? Thanks guys
 
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10.33 Possible conditions which may be
applied are listed at Appendix 3 as a guide
to firearms licensing officers. They should
be used, where the individual circumstances
require it, to ensure consistency of practice
between police forces (joke). Exceptionally, chief
officers of police may impose other
conditions appropriate to individual
circumstances (another joke). As the courts have held
(R v Cambridge Crown Court ex parte Buckland,
1998) that there is no right of appeal against
the imposition of conditions (as opposed to
a refusal to grant or renew a certificate)
chief officers will wish to be cautious in
imposing conditions that might amount to
a constructive refusal to grant or renew a
certificate, that is additional conditions that
would make possession or use so difficult as
to be redundant in practice.
 
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10.33 Possible conditions which may be
applied are listed at Appendix 3 as a guide
to firearms licensing officers. They should
be used, where the individual circumstances
require it, to ensure consistency of practice
between police forces (joke). Exceptionally, chief
officers of police may impose other
conditions appropriate to individual
circumstances (another joke). As the courts have held
(R v Cambridge Crown Court ex parte Buckland,
1998) that there is no right of appeal against
the imposition of conditions (as opposed to
a refusal to grant or renew a certificate)
chief officers will wish to be cautious in
imposing conditions that might amount to
a constructive refusal to grant or renew a
certificate, that is additional conditions that
would make possession or use so difficult as
to be redundant in practice.

So does that mean we are screwed even if we appeal against the above conditions we can't is that what they are saying? Thanks for your reply mate
 
What it means is, if we agree to the conditions then we have to adhere to them.... but if we reject the conditions it becomes a constructive refusal.

So basically, if your FEO is insistant on you having a mentor and you say "I don't want a mentor" he would have to either grant a certificate without a menoring condition or issue a refusal.
You have the right to appeal against refusal, but not conditions.
 
What it means is, if we agree to the conditions then we have to adhere to them.... but if we reject the conditions it becomes a constructive refusal.

So basically, if your FEO is insistant on you having a mentor and you say "I don't want a mentor" he would have to either grant a certificate without a menoring condition or issue a refusal.
You have the right to appeal against refusal, but not conditions.

How can he impose mentoring conditions if we don't have a deer stalking friend ?surely a paid deer stalking while accompanied would suffice in these instances? Cheers
 
"Whilst accompanied by a competant deer stalker" is a commonly used condition.
 
That's what I thought and in regard to the number of stalks you need to have done I thought confirmed bookings was "good reason" to have a deer calibre so what is he on about 10 stalks and five bookings? Cheers mate
 
You could ask the Chief officers admin officer, Has the power to add conditions been passed fully to this feo?............... sounds very much like an isolated power trip by this feo, & will the Chief Constable back the wording this person has foisted on you?
 
You could ask the Chief officers admin officer, Has the power to add conditions been passed fully to this feo?............... sounds very much like an isolated power trip by this feo, & will the Chief Constable back the wording this person has foisted on you?

That's all I can think of is a power trip just another control on the firearms user ,my mate reckon he had tons of paperwork related to recent events he was there for nearly two hours
 
I would phone the licensing office and ask for their policy WRT issuing deer cal rifles in writing.
The force policy is what the licensing office create for their own force.
E.G. Avon and Somerset requires that you satisfy one of the three following before they will give authority to acquire a deer cal rifle.
1. Prior C/F experience.
2. DSC1
3. Mentored by someone who has a deer cal rifle.
Be aware that land for deer stalking is sought after and in a worst case your mentor could cozy up to your land owner and you lose the land.
 
I would phone the licensing office and ask for their policy WRT issuing deer cal rifles in writing.
The force policy is what the licensing office create for their own force.
E.G. Avon and Somerset requires that you satisfy one of the three following before they will give authority to acquire a deer cal rifle.
1. Prior C/F experience.
2. DSC1
3. Mentored by someone who has a deer cal rifle.
Be aware that land for deer stalking is sought after and in a worst case your mentor could cozy up to your land owner and you lose the land.

Thanks for your reply mate I only want to do paid deer stalking,and there are very few deer on the land we shoot on its a game shoot as well you see, so would always be accompanied whilst stalking anyway
 
The force policy is what the licensing office create for their own force.

Irrespective of what their force 'policy' might be, they must consider each case on it's own merits.

E.G. Avon and Somerset requires that you satisfy one of the three following before they will give authority to acquire a deer cal rifle.
1. Prior C/F experience.
2. DSC1
3. Mentored by someone who has a deer cal rifle.

They might 'require' any one of those criteria but AFAIK none of them are a requirement anywhere in the HO Guidance or under any of the Firearms Acts, so if they are operating a blanket policy then they need, if circumstances allow, to be challenged.

Can you tell me what major differences occur in Homo Sapiens just across the border in Devon that make them immune to such tosh?

Mongoose. Just put down paid stalking on your variation and ask for it to be processed as such - the FEO can look at HO Guidance 13.10 if he needs reminding that it's a valid reason for possession. This looks like an FEO who wants to do a number on you. Be polite but insist that the FLD process the application as is or refuse with reasons in writing - you can then appeal.
 
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Irrespective of what their force 'policy' might be, they must consider each case on it's own merits.



They might 'require' any one of those criteria but AFAIK none of them are a requirement anywhere in the HO Guidance or under any of the Firearms Acts, so if they are operating a blanket policy then they need, if circumstances allow, to be challenged.

Can you tell me what major differences occur in Homo Sapiens just across the border in Devon that make them immune to such tosh?

This is what I thought, I understood that conditions like these were only in extreme circumstances?
 
"Whilst accompanied by a competant deer stalker" is a commonly used condition.

That's exactly what I got mine changed to without any problems to make the "condition" less restrictive. If your FEO would accept that then you would surely be covered to go on paid/guided stalks.
(I have just sent my FAC off with a letter from an "experienced stalker" to get the condition removed)
 
Guys, a letter from such a 'competant stalker' saying a certificate holder is safe with the skills and experience necessary to stalk successfully without supervision is all you need to get the condition removed. DSC1 helps greatly but such a letter from an experienced person can't be challenged by the flo's.
 
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