Is the any difference in Management and Stalking

Mannlicher_Stu

Well-Known Member
Wild Deer as against Park deer or captivated deer
and what Role should be in your view your part in deer managment and wildlife program?

Views please and please NO PERSONAL REMARKS each and everyone is entitled to his or her own point of view without being personally abused.
 
Hi.

i see no real point in starting a new thread for this stu,
seems its going ok and is remaining civil on the other one...

atb f
 
There is in my book... Although I can see the need for deer park management and the attraction for rich businessmen a virtually guaranteed way to bag a trophy stag, I much prefer to be 'out on the hill' at one with nature and the elements. For me that is all the more enjoyable and is what I consider 'stalking' as opposed to just shooting.
Each to their own, like you say ;)
 
Wild Deer as against Park deer or captivated deer

Captivated??? Definition: To attract and hold by charm, beauty, or excellence. I presume you mean captive?

Yes there is a difference between management and stalking. To paraphrase, deer management seeks to manage the population of deer in an attempt to balance the differing uses demanded from an area of land. Deer stalking is the activity by which we approach and cull deer and put them into the food chain.

I have only ever stalked wild deer, though down here in the soft South I think you could sometimes classify deer as "semi-wild", given the amount of human disturbance and restraints on their movement.

I have had numerous conversations with managers of deer parks which has convinced me that their role, whilst different, is every bit as demanding. Unlike our stalking of deer in the wild they have to give as much, if not more, consideration to the welfare of the herd during culling as they do to the individual deer.

willie_gunn
 
In my view, the difference between deer stalking and deer management is:

Deer stalking is largely an art! The art of using fieldcraft in order to outwit a deer in it's natural environment.

Deer management incorporates the art, but it is largely a science.

The contrast is the difference between the person who can actively go out and stalk a deer, ....... and the person who can go out and stalk a deer, the correct deer, know the reasons why that particular deer is being stalked and culled, know the consequences of that cull, and the likely results of NOT doing it.

That is the difference according to me!!!

Mike
(Jelen Deer Services) www.jelendeer.com
 
Stu

Apologies, but I think I abbreviated the question. Presumably it is "Is there any difference in Management and Stalking Wild Deer as against Park deer or captivate deer?"

If so, my answer would be "No" in terms of the general governing principals, but "Yes" in terms of the practice.

willie_gunn
 
Stu

Apologies, but I think I abbreviated the question. Presumably it is "Is there any difference in Management and Stalking Wild Deer as against Park deer or captivate deer?"

If so, my answer would be "No" in terms of the general governing principals, but "Yes" in terms of the practice.

willie_gunn
Your correct but I note you havent offered any views in respect to the wildlife program which was part of my question and what part do you think you should play into all or any, and what it encompasses as a wildlife manager.
Thanks Stu
 
Park deer have only a few variables so are easier to manage. Wild deer have lots of variables and most stalkers shoot deer only the luckie few manage them. PS wild deer are harder to stalk as they have freedom and can move as they please. But if you make a mistake in your managment plan nature will normally make amends for you to some degree .With wild deer if you mess up it will cost you big time.
 
Park deer have only a few variables so are easier to manage. Wild deer have lots of variables and most stalkers shoot deer only the luckie few manage them. PS wild deer are harder to stalk as they have freedom and can move as they please. But if you make a mistake in your managment plan nature will normally make amends for you to some degree .With wild deer if you mess up it will cost you big time.

Interesting point of view David one I agree with but would you care to expand a little on what your views are as to why it will cost you big time.
I will give my views later
Regards
Stu
 
i think the only big difference is that if you cock up the park deer they are there for another day as they have limited access to new ground
true wild deer can disappear if you miss/spook them.
deer in built up areas are therefore by definition captive although it would have to be used loosly

f..
 
Your correct but I note you havent offered any views in respect to the wildlife program which was part of my question and what part do you think you should play into all or any, and what it encompasses as a wildlife manager.
Thanks Stu

Stu

Sorry, I thought I'd covered that in my previous post? Also, what do you mean exactly by wildife programs?

Whether wild or park deer, in both cases they need managing. As above, by management I mean the goal of balancing the welfare of the deer with the use of the land and the management outcomes desired.

Where I stalk I am not the deer manager per se, though I actively work with him in such activities as completing the cull, monitoring the health and wellbeing of the deer population and achieving the other management objectives in terms of guiding clients, selling venison, etc.

The objectives and goals of a manager looking after park deer might well be different (for example they might be looking for different sex ratios, different age ratios, a desire to produce "breedable" stags, etc.) but the principals remain the same - balancing the deer population with the various uses of the land and the overall management objectives. Since the deer are captive they might not have the same worries about damage to crops, woods, etc. but on the other hand they have a lot bigger role in terms of food & nutrition, disease, venison production, etc.

willie_gunn
 
I read your opening remarks Stu, and immediately got hit with the various wild deer situations. Forgetting park or captive deer for one minute, how about Woodland versus hill deer for a start ? Then forget the hill deer bit and think about the various situations for woodland deer and possibly management - and I say - possibly management, but it depends a lot on what is interpreteed by each individual as management, and this is dictated by the woodlands after personal preferences are considered.

Is it beside a heavily populated urban area or fairly remote - is it confounded by bridle paths and encroachment, is it FC land, broadleaf or conifer ? ?

This subject seems to me to be a minefield for anyone trying to formulate an opinion and it must be down to the individual who has the shooting to spend a lot of time on the ground and thinking about it before coming to a decision on how it might be managed - then trying it out - and that takes time, probably at least the generation age of a deer.

It's easy to sit in a chair and criticise, and dangerous to generalise as each territory has its own pitfalls.

Hill deer management is relatively easy - apart from the work - if the population is fairly static or in an 'Island' situation. It's not so easy where the travelling stags - or in some cases, hinds, move across several deer forests according to seasonal requirements of their own.

So you can get one estate virtually stripped because it historically plays winter host to several hundred deer, then they disappear during the summer to spread out across various other deer estates, (deer forests), and finally settle down somewhere else altogether for the rut and shooting season.

So, hill deer management is very much down to geographical deer groups within which the estates should work together, and that is often difficult because opinions vary and needs or aims are often different.
BUT, the deer are visible and countable for much of the time and that helps a lot.

You opened up a whole barrel full of worms and it's time I backed out.

Thanks for a very thought-provoking thread.
 
i think the only big difference is that if you cock up the park deer they are there for another day as they have limited access to new ground
true wild deer can disappear if you miss/spook them.
deer in built up areas are therefore by definition captive although it would have to be used loosly

f..

Except for Roe Deer obviously because as they tend to be territorial we can often make several trips, each with a sighting of a particular one before eventually we succeed in getting it.

Can we clarify that when we refer to park deer it does not necessarily mean they are corralled in 10acres of ground. The 'park' could be several hundred acres. Not much difference in fact to the size of some on here's land. If that wood happens to be the only one for miles around very likely the deer will by choice remain there. Fenced in or not.
 
i think the only big difference is that if you cock up the park deer they are there for another day as they have limited access to new ground
true wild deer can disappear if you miss/spook them.
deer in built up areas are therefore by definition captive although it would have to be used loosly

f..

In my view there is a lot more to it than that Frank which I will give my view on later but i am interested to see what others views are.
A.T.B
Stu
 
In my view the difference is in the term "wild" or "Park". Wild deer may be stalked or shot depending on circumstance and an element of chance is always present.

Park deer are just shot. No stalk actually takes place unless its very large park but even then you know were they will be or go and can out manoeuvre them to get the shot you need and the animal you need. The element of chance is almost removed. More a game of cat and mouse until the eventual outcome is achieved.

Management can be applied to both park and wild deer, tailored to the needs of the environment, economics, sport or welfare of the deer. Oh sorry forgot to mention the all important DMP.......
 
As all deer species have different family behaviour structures in the wild . If a mistake was made IE taking out say a matriatic doe where her satalite offspring was living in the family structure or master buck in a large forest at the wrong time would that be a disaster or not? Would it bollock up your DMP or enhance it?
Against a similar scenario within a deer captive enclosure?

Obviously most deer enclosed area contain more red deer and fallow but some contain more than those species.
 
Last edited:
I read your opening remarks Stu, and immediately got hit with the various wild deer situations. Forgetting park or captive deer for one minute, how about Woodland versus hill deer for a start ? Then forget the hill deer bit and think about the various situations for woodland deer and possibly management - and I say - possibly management, but it depends a lot on what is interpreteed by each individual as management, and this is dictated by the woodlands after personal preferences are considered.

Is it beside a heavily populated urban area or fairly remote - is it confounded by bridle paths and encroachment, is it FC land, broadleaf or conifer ? ?

This subject seems to me to be a minefield for anyone trying to formulate an opinion and it must be down to the individual who has the shooting to spend a lot of time on the ground and thinking about it before coming to a decision on how it might be managed - then trying it out - and that takes time, probably at least the generation age of a deer.

It's easy to sit in a chair and criticise, and dangerous to generalise as each territory has its own pitfalls.

Hill deer management is relatively easy - apart from the work - if the population is fairly static or in an 'Island' situation. It's not so easy where the travelling stags - or in some cases, hinds, move across several deer forests according to seasonal requirements of their own.

So you can get one estate virtually stripped because it historically plays winter host to several hundred deer, then they disappear during the summer to spread out across various other deer estates, (deer forests), and finally settle down somewhere else altogether for the rut and shooting season.

So, hill deer management is very much down to geographical deer groups within which the estates should work together, and that is often difficult because opinions vary and needs or aims are often different.
BUT, the deer are visible and countable for much of the time and that helps a lot.

You opened up a whole barrel full of worms and it's time I backed out.

Thanks for a very thought-provoking thread.

Good response ecoman and a lot of truth in your views much appreciated.
Stu
 
As all deer species have different family behaviour structures in the wild . If a mistake was made IE taking out say a matriatic doe where her satalite offspring was living in the family structure or master buck in a large forest at the wrong time would that be a disaster or not? Would it bollock up your DMP or enhance it?
Against a similar scenario within a deer captive enclosure?

Stu

Would it be a disaster? That depends. If it was a conscious decision to take out the wrong deer then that's poor management, but what about accidents? For wild deer you could lose the deer at any time of the year through an RTA for example. In the park, what if you lose one through disease, fighting, etc. You still have to account for it in your plan. But a plan is surely only something to work towards, not an absolute?

The luxury in the park scenario is that you may know exactly the age/sex structure of your herd and the number of deer, so theoretically you can take out exactly the deer that you want. For wild deer at best it's an estimate, both planning and culling.

willie_gunn
 
Stu

Would it be a disaster? That depends. If it was a conscious decision to take out the wrong deer then that's poor management, but what about accidents? For wild deer you could lose the deer at any time of the year through an RTA for example. In the park, what if you lose one through disease, fighting, etc. You still have to account for it in your plan. But a plan is surely only something to work towards, not an absolute?

The luxury in the park scenario is that you may know exactly the age/sex structure of your herd and the number of deer, so theoretically you can take out exactly the deer that you want. For wild deer at best it's an estimate, both planning and culling.

willie_gunn

Your correct on all your observations in your last post so its a lot easier to manage and cull deer in a park by your own admission, therefore through your observations it must be a lot harder to control and manage wild deer..

Whats hasnt been broached upon yet is how in the wild do you assess deer numbers on the ground and in what areas are they likely to be found and when such is found how do you identify the main players in the species under observation, a lot easier thing to establish in a confin invironment, especially if your dealing with the likes of roe deer structure and there family traits pecking orders etc in their offspring. Unless you have all this information pegged on a ground plan from information coming in from rangers etc how the hell can you be 100% sure your not taking out a matrionic doe which if you got it wrong at the wrong time to take her out ,and likewise with a master buck but more so with the doe you are going to see a major influx of movement and deer numbers that you dont want on the ground.
All trying to move up the ladder scale and pecking order.
Do it at the right time and it can be used in your favour do it wrong through not doing your homework and you feck it all up as David suggested its not all about slotting deer on the ground more to it than that.

How many deer managers or stalkers on here muck in creating a better invironment and habitat some do but more are concerned in shooting deer and they think thats all its about.

Its not and although the culling of park deer needs to be done like any form of deer control shooting trophys should only form a small part in the management of any deer be it wild or captive.

More education and needs to be carried out to get stalkers into creating invironmental habitat like helping with work parties clearing rides of invasive plant life thats choking the herbs and fescues that these larger animals thrive on , more understanding and help is needed in collating vital information which can be used to create healthy deer stock and areas where a cull is needed to improve deer welfare these changes on a voluntary basis are needed which can only create self education on deer habits and better fieldcraft instead of just shooting deer which what seems to be the flavour of the month.
 
Last edited:
An excellent, diverse and complex discussion topic.

I believe that MS,WG, Mike, Dave and EC have all made first rate points. To which I largely agree on principle.

I hope to have the time to contribute later, until then.

Keep it up.
 
Back
Top