What is the cost of appealing refusal of a variation?

stalker.308

Well-Known Member
I couldn't see that this has been covered elsewhere so here goes!

A friend of mine is new to deer stalking. I have taken him out stalking several times, and he has shot 5 deer with me. He is coming on a red stalking trip later in the year so I suggested he get his own rifle. He put in a variation for a .308 (as he already has a .22lr and a .223). With his variation he submitted a letter from me about his experience and a letter from our red booking later in the year, which states a minimum of .30 cal.

FEO came out and said 'we don't hand them out down here' but he would 'try' for him!

Refusal when he has experience and a booking for an actual trip would be odd, because thats what forces always want, evidence of where it will be used, but I understand that you only 21 days to appeal following a refusal.

Can anyone tell me what is involved in appealing? Would he need representation? What are the costs if he wins? What are the costs if he loses? As time would be short if he was refused, thought I should do the research before it potentially happens. Any help much appreciated....
 
I would suggest the FEO should have been a bit clearer. IMO he should KNOW whether he is going to get the variation or not. it is on the basis of his discussion anyway so why wouldnt he?

as for costs etc of an appeal I couldnt tell you.
I wouldnt hold out much hope, it is down to personal opinion and interpretation of the law on the force involved
 
Am I right in thinking that there has not actually been a 'refusal' yet?
If there hasn't, I'd wait and see.
 
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As time would be short if he was refused, thought I should do the research before it potentially happens. Any help much appreciated....

As I said above we are pre-empting a worst case scenario as time would be short to start making these enquiries before he is over the 21 days to appeal it. He has not been refused yet and I would not have thought they possibly could refuse, but each force acts differently.
 
He hasn't been refused yet so it's maybe a bit of posturing. Do NWP have previous form on this?

The book says the main criteria for a grant or refusal are Public Safety and Good Reason. He's an existing FAC holder so surely only the second consideration applies... unless they think he's too inexperienced as a deerstalker.
 
He hasn't been refused yet so it's maybe a bit of posturing.

'Posturing' is harsh!;)

The job of the Applicant is to make it straightforward to the FEO to grant his request.

Here, we have a FAC-holder who already has experience of using .22LR and .223, has documented evidence of stalking experience, has evidence of booked stalking for later in the year.

The FEO, who clearly has little experience of issuing rifles other than for vermin control, has expressed his surprise at being asked for a .308 but is going away to think about it. As he is more or less bound to follow the HO Guidance, it is difficult to see what might prevent approval of the variation.

In fact, if I were the applicant and the variation were turned down I would immediately write to the FLD manager asking if it was a clerical error.
 
Tell your friend to contact his firearms licensing dept and ask to speak to the manager its his/ her decision who gets what and who gets refused the officer can only make a recomendation in cheshire the manageress is very strict what happens

Mark
 
Tell your friend to contact his firearms licensing dept and ask to speak to the manager its his/ her decision who gets what and who gets refused the officer can only make a recomendation in cheshire the manageress is very strict what happens

Mark

If the FEO is not sure how the Manager will respond it is not unreasonable for him to be a bit downbeat about the chances of approval. I'd be inclined to let him get on with it in the first instance, and see what happens next.
 
Hardly posturing!:

posturingpresent participle of pos·ture (Verb)
1. Behave in a way that is intended to impress or mislead others.
2. Adopt (an attitude) to impress or mislead.

All I am asking is if anyone has ever been through an appeal and what it cost them! I repeat again, this is just a time saving exercise should he be refused and if anyone has the answer to cost, it would certainly help others coming on SD who ar elooking for info on costs and the process.

The other info on his exact details is just for info. His FAC is with Dyfed/Powys Police, hence the potential problem as there are very few deer in those counties, almost 99% of variations and applications are for vermin calibres. NWP have always been absolutely spot on and I am a very happy stalker for their input!
 
Hopefully your friend will not need to get anywhere near the stage of mounting a legal challenge for a refusal as what he is applying for and the supporting evidence ticks all the boxes. If it does start to get a bit gnarly, then provided he can provide all the right arguements any issuing force is more than likely to back down before it goes legal.

Is he a member of a shooting organisation? Some will have specific insurance to cover legal challenges over firearms matters - SACS appears to be one that don't mind getting involved for the membership.

His FAC is with Dyfed/Powys Police, hence the potential problem as there are very few deer in those counties, almost 99% of variations and applications are for vermin calibres.

The fact that there are very few deer within the force area doesn't really raise an issue. He has his 'good reason' by way stalking eleswhere and the HO Guidance recognises this as a perfectly valid route to possession of deer calibre or other firearms.

Examples:

13.10 The named land need not be owned or
rented by the applicant, nor need they have
regular or automatic access to it. Farmers and
landowners may allow shooters to shoot on
their land, for payment or otherwise, on a
formal or informal basis. An applicant need
not always nominate a piece of land as
evidence of “good reason”, but in such cases
the applicant may be required, where possible,
to provide written evidence, for example from
a relevant organisation, a professional pest
controller or of a booking to shoot.

13.30 An applicant who wishes to shoot deer
should name land which has the likelihood of
the appropriate deer species being present,
and an invitation, booking or authority to
shoot. Many deer stalkers will rely on
invitations to shoot on payment rather than
be hired or paid to do so and may not be
able to shoot regularly or frequently, though
others may be permanently employed, for
example Forestry Commission staff. Hunting
large animals with powerful rifles requires
particular skill, and applicants should generally
have experience of firearms.
 
You need a copy of the police forces policy WRT deer calibre rifles, each force formulates its own policy WRT foxing and deer rifles which has no legal basis.
This policy determines whether your friend satisfies their requirements or not and so whether the variation succeeds or not.
For my force to issue authority to acquire a deer cal rifle they require one of the following:
1. DSC1.
2. Prior CF experience.
3. Mentoring


I thought about it but did not.
I was refused a variation as I did not satisfy force policy but I did DSC1 instead.
The case is held in Crown court.
You need a solicitor and a barrister. Costs are circa £3-5k IF it goes to court.
If plod think they will lose they capitulate before the case is heard as it will cost them the same amount.
There is a ten day notice period when documents have to be exchanged between plaintif and defendant. And it is when plod have read your case that they will decide whether to capitulate.

It is simple to initiate the appeal, contact the crown court and tell them you will appeal.


Don't hold your breath if you are in BASC no idea about SACS but AFAIUI they only contest where they will win.

To quote from guidance in the Home office guidance to police 2002, para 13.30
An applicant who wishes to shoot deer
should name land which has the likelihood of
the appropriate deer species being present,
and an invitation, booking or authority to
shoot. Many deer stalkers will rely on
invitations to shoot on payment rather than
be hired or paid to do so and may not be
able to shoot regularly or frequently, though
others may be permanently employed, for
example Forestry Commission staff. Hunting
large animals with powerful rifles requires
particular skill, and applicants should generally
have experience of firearms.


If he has used a 223 then he has the experience of CF rifles and the stalking already done should tip the balance in his favour.
 
Jack, that's interesting - Gloustershire Constabulary?

What sort of a condition did you end up with on your FAC when it finally arrived?

Strange in a way that they will equate DSC1 with prior centrefire experience, given that it's possible to pass the shooting test without a) having previously handled a firearm; and b) only taking the minimum 9 shots at the range on the day! I won't mention 'mentoring' :rolleyes:
 
Jack, that's interesting - Gloucestershire Constabulary?

What sort of a condition did you end up with on your FAC when it finally arrived?

Strange in a way that they will equate DSC1 with prior centrefire experience, given that it's possible to pass the shooting test without a) having previously handled a firearm; and b) only taking the minimum 9 shots at the range on the day! I won't mention 'mentoring' :rolleyes:

A&S force.
I had a high seat condition as the M5 abuts it. This condition was placed upon me not the land due to a certain Firearms officer having his own views about me and scared of taking decisions.
I got it removed 18 months ago and now have an open cert since renewal. After a while they become nicer to you as you are experienced.

DSC1 is a classroom exercise apart from shooting and simulated stalk and I had a lot to learn when I started, how to gralloch and skin for starters. There is a huge difference between 22LR and CF in terms of lethality and safety
 
There is a huge difference between 22LR and CF in terms of lethality and safety
I'm not sold on that. Is there such a thing as a safe shot with a .22RF that isn't safe with a .243? Your .22RF is more likely to richochet and potentially more likely to harm something than your CF round that will fragment on impact. I don't see it's that different. You can kill some one quite well with a .22RF round.
 
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