Designer bred animals

MJ75

Well-Known Member
Looking around the african outfitters I'm noticing an increase in the number of 'designer animals' available to hunt. Once upon a time you could hunt a springbok. Now you can hunt a normal, black, white and copper coloured springbok. Normal blesbok and white blesbok. Even white lion. All they are selectively line bred animals. They are not a new species, hybrid or integrade etc.

This is nothing new, man has chosen to line breed domesticated animals and even pets for centuries. I'm sure they'll be a number of 'collectors' out there that will be happy to pay upto $1200 for a copper springbok as it's something different.

What do SD hunters think about this? Could you be bothered trying for a new colour variant of an antelope? Is it a clever way for outfitters to exploit 'collecctors'?

Will this ever happen heere in the UK? Will we ever see albino munties offered?
 
The color variations do occur natural in nature, like the king cheetah, a resesive gene is responsible for this occurances. I do not have aproblem if this occurs naturally, unfortuneately their are gamefarm owners that have breeding programs to breed this type of animals. With this practise I have a big problem. As a human race we have done many things that destoyed our natural heritage, because of this we have no option other than to manage it, but managing color variants are against my norms.

There is also the question of supply and demand, there is a definate demand for this color variations that is why they are bred. For me this is a greed thing. Unfortunately we have collectors spread over the world with lots of money that believe their money can buy what they want, then you get the people who are prepared to do anything to get that money. There are many examples of this, canned hunts, drugged animals and captive bred animals. I personally is 1000% opposed to this.

For me a true hunting experience is one where you hunt hard for your trophies and you must have a big pot of luck to get the exceptional trophies.
 
Although we do have common and white blesbok at Nduna Lodge, there is no attempt to "manage" these colour variants and they breed as they will. We do offer colour variants because there is a definite market for them and after all, we are in business. Like SA Hunt, we are in ethical business, and like him, we abhor the thought of "canned" hunts, drugged animals and captive "bred to hunt" animals. We do not think a person is a bad hunter or wrong because he wishes to hunt colour variants, as long as in doing so, all proper ethics are observed. We also agree with SA Hunt that there is (or there should be) a great element of luck in successfully hunting an exceptional trophy. However, we know they are out there and we know where to look.
 
Although we do have common and white blesbok at Nduna Lodge, there is no attempt to "manage" these colour variants and they breed as they will. We do offer colour variants because there is a definite market for them and after all, we are in business. Like SA Hunt, we are in ethical business, and like him, we abhor the thought of "canned" hunts, drugged animals and captive "bred to hunt" animals. We do not think a person is a bad hunter or wrong because he wishes to hunt colour variants, as long as in doing so, all proper ethics are observed. We also agree with SA Hunt that there is (or there should be) a great element of luck in successfully hunting an exceptional trophy. However, we know they are out there and we know where to look.

Nduna I'm curious, you operate in RSA from what I can see but you say you abhor the idea of canned hunts. Is the hunting in your area not fenced?
 
By South African law, if an outfitter wishes to host hunts for International guests, all year round, then he must have an external fence. So yes, we have external fences, around vast areas. In fact, it is probably the most expensive outfitter set up cost. Within our external fence, the animals are free to roam where they will. Is that "Canned Hunting"? I guess it depends on how you define "Canned Hunting". I would define it as where animals are kept in a paddock or a cage and just before the client arrives, they are let out into an unfamiliar area, where they are then shot whilst disoriented. A practice, as I said, I abhor. The same goes for our concessions. Our European guy manages 4000 acres of Scottish forestry, much of which is fenced. Would his hunting in UK be described as canned? I don't think he thinks so. We do not consider for a moment that we provide "Canned Hunting" of any type. Therefore we feel free to abhor it.
 
Game farms that are fenced does not constitute canned hunting. On a properly and ethically managed game farm it is not easy to hunt. You must work for your animal and yes the profesionals in RSA do know what they are doing. Please remember that the animals on a gamefarm are living there year in and year out, they know every bit of the property, they are constantly being hunted by Leopard and other predators, they are everywhere. We must also remember that African animals have been hunted for ages, by predators and by human beings, long before Europians set foot in Africa. Animals will flee instictively if they see movement, hear a small noise or smell something suspicious. The fact that there is a fence around them also does not mean they cannot get out, I have personally wittnesed Kudu and Eland jumping fences, kudu cows and Impalas also know how to creep through fences, like many other animals.

Canned hunting is when an animal is kept in a very small enclosure and hunted in that enclosure, or an animal is kept in a small enclosure and is freed a day before it is hunted. It is all about the chance that an animal has to escape death. Canned is when a animal have absolutely no chance to escape and that given animal is 100% going to get killed. Other unethical practises are put and take, where animals are delivered on the farm a day or two before the hunter arrives, the animal does not know the area or the escape routes. Hunting animals at a feeding through when they are fed at specific times of the day is another unethical practise.


Fences in Africa are not only wire fences. In many countries areas are burnt to encourage the grass to form new soft growth, animals are atracted to this areas and they are hunted on this areas, destuction of an animals natural habitat also creates fences. I think it is about ones personal ethics that makes the difference. I have on many occations stalked animals and they heard, smelled or saw me and they were gone. It might sound easy to hunt on a fenced property, but I can guarentee that it is not always as easy as it sounds. The size of the property, the denseness of the vegetation and topography also plays a very big role in the success of a hunt.
 
Gents

I'm aware of how things work in RSA. I also beliece there is no meaningful definition of 'canned hunting' just opinion. It's also a discussion that should be had face to face over a few cold beers and probably not on an internet forum.

My comments were made as I'm surprised at ndunas comments about no management of 'designer trophies' in their fenced areas. Did all four springbok colours occur naturally? As well as both blesbok colours? You must be very lucky if that is the case. I'm surprised there is no 'management' of these as you are a business. And as your copper springbok are 25% or so more expensive than other outfitters at $1500 each going by your website I was trying to see the logic. I hope that makes sense?

As for Scotland, a 4000 acre fenced forest is not very appealing in all honesty. I've just returned from hunting reds on a forest around 2000 acres but with no fences. At the top of the hill I could see many reds all around and beyond our boundary. Truly free animals. I hope fenced forests in Scotland don't increase in popularity. I'd be interested to know what effect inbreeding has on the deer population in a 4000 acre fenced area over time.

Just so there is no confusion I have hunted a fenced area in RSA. It is absolutely huge with self sustaining and truly wild animals on there.
 
MJ75,

I've seen large herds of white and common Springbok in the Karoo and in Namibia. Wild and not interbreeding.
Black tend to be smaller groups and using different habitat, again, not interbreeding.

The copper that I've seen are a local darkening in the Karoo in common herds.

Common, White and Black Springbok have always been seen from a DNA perspective as sub species not just colur variants.

Stan
 
MJ75,

I've seen large herds of white and common Springbok in the Karoo and in Namibia. Wild and not interbreeding.
Black tend to be smaller groups and using different habitat, again, not interbreeding.

The copper that I've seen are a local darkening in the Karoo in common herds.

Common, White and Black Springbok have always been seen from a DNA perspective as sub species not just colur variants.

Stan


Interesting, I've only seen common and black. The black springbok were amongst a herd of common springbok in the eastern cape. If they are a different sub species, what are the various scientific names for white, black and copper? I know common (aka cape springbok) are Antidorcas marsupialis and the Kalahari springbok is a larger sub species classified as Antidorcas marsupialis hofmeyri, the Angolan springbok Antidorcas marsupialis angolensis. But wondered what the other three (black, white and copper) are? :)

Are you sure they are a valid sub species? They will have been classified if they are. I've read that they are 'sports'. As you know this is something very different to an actual genuine sub species. I've also read that there is a lot of investment taking place to breed these to fullfil market demands. Hence me starting the thread. I really wanted to hear what other hunters thought about this. :)
 
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All I know is what I've seen happening in the areas I've been in. The people I stay with don't do anything other than massively cull. Common and White don't mix. Maybe that's what maintains the aberration.

Stan
 
All I know is what I've seen happening in the areas I've been in. The people I stay with don't do anything other than massively cull. Common and White don't mix. Maybe that's what maintains the aberration.

Stan

Antelope apartheid!? Only in RSA eh?

The colour mutation or variation is due to a recessive gene. People have exploited this to breed the animals true. They are not a subspecies, but are 'sports' which breed true. I'm not 100% sure which of the three sub species they are, but suspect they are common springbok as opposed to Kalahari or Angolans.

Breeding animals like this as I said in my first post is nothing new. Man has done it for centuries, walk into a tropical fish or reptile pet shop and a large percentage of animals offered for sale are simply line bred colour mutations produced to be more attractive and thus boost sales and profits by the relevant industries. I even do this at home with some of my game birds.

I don't believe that large populations of these sports will have arrived on game reserves without a lot of management from man at some point. I'd have to see genuine scientific proof to be convinced otherwise too. There will have been a lot of captive breeding projects at some point to build up breeding stock before self sustaining populations will have existed. But it's not just springbok which are being 'produced' like this. You now get white blesbok, white zebra, and white lion. Just like the white springbok, all of these look a bit naff in my humble opinion. Especially the white zebra! Look around and you'll also find black impala and golden wildebeest. There may be more, these are just the ones I've found whilst looking around the t'internet.

A white lion hunt in RSA has to be the ultimate 'man made canned hunting experience' doesn't it?



 
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For those interested you might want to take a look at this site :-

http://www.moonlight-lodge.co.za/Wildlife/ForSale/Black-impala/index.html

This place breeds animals for hunting reserves. They offer golden wildebeest and black impala. I think I paid around £150 for my impala cull fee back in 2010. I see they have a beautiful black impala ram for sale at 260,000 rand. Or £20,000 in real money. These 'designer' animals are big business. Check out the prices of these stock animals and you'll see why the cull fees offered by outfitters are high.

Though in 10 to 20 years time once production has been increased, which is inevitable I believe I reckon prices will have fallen significantly.
 
Hi everyone, I'm Phillip from South Africa.

I am a M.Sc. Zoology student at the University of the Free State in Bloemfontein, and I am currently doing my project on Colour Variants of African Antelope.

I came across this discussion on the forum about colour variants and thought I would ask you all what your thoughts are on the topic. I would really like to know how many people would pay to hunt such animal; in South African Rand terms they are not affordable at all so currently they are basically only being bred and seems and very few hunts take place, what I do wonder about now is would people actually pay to hunt even if the prices do drop.
I am very interested to determine what the opinions of various stakeholders are on the subject. Therefore we created a survey to determine what these opinions are. I believe hunters provide a invaluable opinion since I believe they are what drives the game ranching industry.
I cannot post links, so please message me if you would like to take part.

Thanks
 
It should be banned in my opinion. And for the life of me I cannot understand why P.H.A.S.A has not done something to stop it.

This is not true hunting this is more akin to a computer game where you can choose which colour animal you want to kill providing you have the finance to do it. Anyone that partakes in this is not a hunter, he/she is nothing more that an idiot with a gun and money.
 
Hi everyone, I'm Phillip from South Africa. I am a M.Sc. Zoology student at the University of the Free State in Bloemfontein, and I am currently doing my project on Colour Variants of African Antelope. I came across this discussion on the forum about colour variants and thought I would ask you all what your thoughts are on the topic. I would really like to know how many people would pay to hunt such animal; in South African Rand terms they are not affordable at all so currently they are basically only being bred and seems and very few hunts take place, what I do wonder about now is would people actually pay to hunt even if the prices do drop. I am very interested to determine what the opinions of various stakeholders are on the subject. Therefore we created a survey to determine what these opinions are. I believe hunters provide a invaluable opinion since I believe they are what drives the game ranching industry. I cannot post links, so please message me if you would like to take part. Thanks


I wouldn't pay to hunt one. I have a reasonable idea of what is involved in line breeding, be it tropical fish, birds or even reptiles. The chances are that the quality of the animal will be poor due to inbreeding and selection of traits that may not be desirable in nature, genetic garbage perhaps?


If I put my business head on, I can see why these animals have been created, and lets be honest we've messed about with flora and fauna since god was a lad, so it's no surprise to see the hunting industry featuring these animals at all. But I doubt they'll appeal to true sportsmen, more collectors.

Playing devils advocate here, but I'd be interested to see why the hunting outfitters who post on here offer them at premium prices, and if they believe there is any difference in the skill required to take such an animal. I think it would also be interesting if they stated why they were introduced on their ranches in te first place. Finally, is it a specific mentality that hunts them?
 
I dont care what colour the animal is ,it is the quality of the stalk/hunt that matters. I feel the same about trophies. The best animal I have stalked to date was a Red stag last year in Scotland 45 minutes crawling on my belly in P**sing rain, wade a river and then got to drop him only 4 points but what a memory. As for colours they all taste the same when skinned. But if the market dictates a need for different colours then I,m affriad the usual human frailties will come to for (greed).
Tusker
 
I will be breading for the near future common Impala, Blue Wildebeest and Common Blesbuck, take my number, i am going to make money again...lol :rofl:
 
It should be banned in my opinion. And for the life of me I cannot understand why P.H.A.S.A has not done something to stop it.QUOTE]


ohhh yes!!! :banghead:

Sorry but that's my opinion and I will stick by it. I don't believe in breeding various adaptions of animals to satisfy people who want a specific colour of animal to hunt. White Lions, Black Springbok or Golden Wildebeest makes no difference to me.

This is where Africa and hunting to me begins to become hunting and shooting to order just for the colour of the animal that has been bred for a particular market.

ATB

Sikamalc
 
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