I'd agree with this view. While it may seem like a "failure" to not be able to "fix" it, to hold a sub inch group, from your initial post it seems you don't actually like or more importantly get on with the rifle anyway. While I'm sure you're sentimental about it being your first stalking rifle and may hold some fond memories of it, I'd recommend you let the rifle go but hold onto the memories. Ultimately your confidence in it is gone. When it comes to our fine sport you need to be accountable for each time you pull the trigger. How will you feel if you take it on an outing and can't get it to keep the group you believe is possible? Probaly lose more confidence in the rifle and dangerously, your ability. More importantly what if this poor result happens on live quarry? I'd honestly get rid of it and keep the memories.
What what would you do with this musgrave?
- Thread starter J111
- Start date
I'd agree with this view. While it may seem like a "failure" to not be able to "fix" it, to hold a sub inch group, from your initial post it seems you don't actually like or more importantly get on with the rifle anyway. While I'm sure you're sentimental about it being your first stalking rifle and may hold some fond memories of it, I'd recommend you let the rifle go but hold onto the memories. Ultimately your confidence in it is gone. When it comes to our fine sport you need to be accountable for each time you pull the trigger. How will you feel if you take it on an outing and can't get it to keep the group you believe is possible? Probaly lose more confidence in the rifle and dangerously, your ability. More importantly what if this poor result happens on live quarry? I'd honestly get rid of it and keep the memories.
Always astonishing how much work people are prepared to do to a rifle to try and get it to shoot. In many cases one just does not want to accept that a barrel might be duff. The forums tell us that a hunting rifle cannot be shot out......
With a proven scope on a bench one can fairly quickly see if the barrel is good or not. A good barrel on almost any action in a lousy or good stock, in a bedded or not bedded stock, pressure bedded or free floating will group MOA if the shooting position is consistent and ammo half way ok.
A lousy barrel will have difficulties in a bench rest set-up.
You need the free floating barrel, good stock and proper bedding if you want to shoot to the same point under all shooting positions. With or without bipod etc.
In the last year I had four barrels changed from second hand hunting rifles as they shot lousy, all were apparently like new, very little shots fired bla bla. After barrel changes they shot very well in the same stock...same bedding...same scopes.
The rifle in the picture looks very nice, maybe worth it to hang on to it. If it will be shot without moderator I'd get a new longer barrel, (Lothar Walther pre chambered ) only needs head spacing and bluing or ceracoating. Bed the action properly, free float. Take the metal out of the forend and make the barrel gap a bit bigger so the forend doesn't touch even if it flexes a bit. ...and get the flag safety changed to at least a 45 deg two position safety which is quite easy/cheap to do.
One could even change the cal to something nicer like a 7x57 or 257 .
edi
With a proven scope on a bench one can fairly quickly see if the barrel is good or not. A good barrel on almost any action in a lousy or good stock, in a bedded or not bedded stock, pressure bedded or free floating will group MOA if the shooting position is consistent and ammo half way ok.
A lousy barrel will have difficulties in a bench rest set-up.
You need the free floating barrel, good stock and proper bedding if you want to shoot to the same point under all shooting positions. With or without bipod etc.
In the last year I had four barrels changed from second hand hunting rifles as they shot lousy, all were apparently like new, very little shots fired bla bla. After barrel changes they shot very well in the same stock...same bedding...same scopes.
The rifle in the picture looks very nice, maybe worth it to hang on to it. If it will be shot without moderator I'd get a new longer barrel, (Lothar Walther pre chambered ) only needs head spacing and bluing or ceracoating. Bed the action properly, free float. Take the metal out of the forend and make the barrel gap a bit bigger so the forend doesn't touch even if it flexes a bit. ...and get the flag safety changed to at least a 45 deg two position safety which is quite easy/cheap to do.
One could even change the cal to something nicer like a 7x57 or 257 .
edi
enfieldspares
Well-Known Member
I am sorry that you are still struggling. It may be that in fact your bullets are too long in length and being shot out too slow.
I had a Parker Hale 6mm Remington that I never could get to group with 100 gfrain Nosler Partition bullets. Ever. Too long and too slow. A pity as it was a nice rifle in a class calibre. But as it was a .243"/6mm like your .243" Winchester that MIGHT be the same problem you're having?
Also and I'm surprised it's not yet been mentioned how is the crown? Try a cloth patch, flannel like old 2x4 is good, and see if it "catches" catches as it exits the muzzle. If so there's your problem!
I had a Parker Hale 6mm Remington that I never could get to group with 100 gfrain Nosler Partition bullets. Ever. Too long and too slow. A pity as it was a nice rifle in a class calibre. But as it was a .243"/6mm like your .243" Winchester that MIGHT be the same problem you're having?
Also and I'm surprised it's not yet been mentioned how is the crown? Try a cloth patch, flannel like old 2x4 is good, and see if it "catches" catches as it exits the muzzle. If so there's your problem!
Had the crown re done by a very competent gun smith so I don't think it's that. Pretty sure it's the mounts..
I understand why several members have suggested you get rid of it and wipe the slate clean, but if it were my rifle I'm sure I'd keep on trying to fix it!
In these times of mass-produced disposability it's hard to find an affordable gun with personality, and the combination of a bespoke stock and an extended period of alternating hope, disappointment and frustration strike me as potent personality-generators.
In any case, for a stalking rifle MOA doesn't matter; consistency matters, so I'd do as you intend to and get a decent gunsmith to supply and fit some reliable mounts.
In these times of mass-produced disposability it's hard to find an affordable gun with personality, and the combination of a bespoke stock and an extended period of alternating hope, disappointment and frustration strike me as potent personality-generators.
In any case, for a stalking rifle MOA doesn't matter; consistency matters, so I'd do as you intend to and get a decent gunsmith to supply and fit some reliable mounts.
Actually musgrave make very fine rifles and their actions are 98 Mauser type
might not be the smoothest but without doubt the strongest and most reliable
my own 308 was built in 1995 and shoots groups of half inch at 100
this took time as it hates most factory loads as seated too far back
I would ask someone to try 4/5 type bullets seated at different depths and range test
tighten mounts plus borrow a scope
if if things don't improve it may be that on the older musgrave the barrel was not free floated
such as mine. It works but against the trend.
might not be the smoothest but without doubt the strongest and most reliable
my own 308 was built in 1995 and shoots groups of half inch at 100
this took time as it hates most factory loads as seated too far back
I would ask someone to try 4/5 type bullets seated at different depths and range test
tighten mounts plus borrow a scope
if if things don't improve it may be that on the older musgrave the barrel was not free floated
such as mine. It works but against the trend.
Get rid of that obscenely large scope on it's over-tall mounting and you will shoot it better. How can you maintain a good consistent position behind the glass with the scope so high in the air?
In the end you don't really like much about the rifle, and it wasn't given to you by a sainted grandfather or other sentimentally noteworthy figure, so get rid of it. Buy a Tikka T3 in a decent chambering and be done with buying rifles.~Muir
In the end you don't really like much about the rifle, and it wasn't given to you by a sainted grandfather or other sentimentally noteworthy figure, so get rid of it. Buy a Tikka T3 in a decent chambering and be done with buying rifles.~Muir
Muir, with the greatest respect, something about that statement is like Imelda Marcos telling my wife to 'just buy one pair of good shoes and be done with it'?
I'm just saying that with the height of that scope, I would expect some difficulty in obtaining good consistent accuracy. I would put something less 'astronomical' on the rifle -that allows lower mounting and a good cheek weld behind the glass- and give it another go round. Or sell it to buy something else.~Muir
Hi muir
i think this logic is flawed. 1. A scope can't go any lower without the already ground down bolt fouling the eye bell and 2. A long 8 x 56 can often be mounted as low as a short 4 x 36 as the barrell thickens near the receiver.
wouldnt but a tikka t3 anyway. Flimsy plastic, long action, non properly free floating barrell, plastic bits
You have never owned a t-3? I have six of them, as well as a few other rifles. Describe Tikkas as you see them but none of my Tikkas have the accuracy problems you have with that Musky.
I've given my advice: I would do what I needed to do to lower the scope. It may not be your sole problem but I'm betting it contributes.~Muir
Heym SR20
Well-Known Member
Re reading this thread and looking at the pictures of the OP. My thoughts would be:]
Revise your expectations - that Musgrave was built in a time when a 2" group at 100 yds was perfectly acceptable, and indeed for 95% of stalking it is perfectly acceptable. It is only in the last few years - at most in the last 10 years - when most over the counter rifles would be expected to produce sub 1" groups. Before that some did, but most don't. To kill deer reliably and humanely a consistent 3 or 4" group at 100 yards will kill any deer at normal stalking ranges.
1) Give the barrel a really good deep clean so that you are starting off with a known entity that's not fouled - even have it examined with a bore scope to check that it is not completely shagged.
2) drop down to an 80gn bullet - 243s and finicky especially with 100gn bullets. Most will shoot very well with most 80 or 90gn loads, but are fussy with 100gn loads.
3) Get rid of that Bipod. In my experience old sporter style rifles such as this with quite light barrels do not shoot well of a Bipod, especially not from a bipod on a firm firing point. The rifle tends to bounce and do all sorts of funny things.
4) When you shoot, forget about the sniper style Bipod and off hand supporting the butt into the shoulder. Go back to more traditional style of shooting with your forehand controlling the recoil (and yes the 243 has snappy recoil that needs controlling and more than enough to throw a light rifle off target). - I have posted this article before - Hold that Forend!
5) slow down the rate of fire. Give the barrel a few minutes to cool with the bolt open - leave bolt open to encourage airflow. Many light barrelled sporting rifles will not group with hot barrels.
My Heym 243 wont shoot off a Bipod, sprays Norma ammo but will put 3 RWS or Geco 100 / 105g rounds into a clover leaf if I do my part and I take my time between shots.
Revise your expectations - that Musgrave was built in a time when a 2" group at 100 yds was perfectly acceptable, and indeed for 95% of stalking it is perfectly acceptable. It is only in the last few years - at most in the last 10 years - when most over the counter rifles would be expected to produce sub 1" groups. Before that some did, but most don't. To kill deer reliably and humanely a consistent 3 or 4" group at 100 yards will kill any deer at normal stalking ranges.
1) Give the barrel a really good deep clean so that you are starting off with a known entity that's not fouled - even have it examined with a bore scope to check that it is not completely shagged.
2) drop down to an 80gn bullet - 243s and finicky especially with 100gn bullets. Most will shoot very well with most 80 or 90gn loads, but are fussy with 100gn loads.
3) Get rid of that Bipod. In my experience old sporter style rifles such as this with quite light barrels do not shoot well of a Bipod, especially not from a bipod on a firm firing point. The rifle tends to bounce and do all sorts of funny things.
4) When you shoot, forget about the sniper style Bipod and off hand supporting the butt into the shoulder. Go back to more traditional style of shooting with your forehand controlling the recoil (and yes the 243 has snappy recoil that needs controlling and more than enough to throw a light rifle off target). - I have posted this article before - Hold that Forend!
5) slow down the rate of fire. Give the barrel a few minutes to cool with the bolt open - leave bolt open to encourage airflow. Many light barrelled sporting rifles will not group with hot barrels.
My Heym 243 wont shoot off a Bipod, sprays Norma ammo but will put 3 RWS or Geco 100 / 105g rounds into a clover leaf if I do my part and I take my time between shots.
I am home from work today with the flu......"Be done with buying rifles"??????????????? Are you feeling OK?
David.
~Muir
AN DU RU FOX
Well-Known Member
its a man cold,I am home from work today with the flu......
I have been. Midway USA has a Stoner AR-15 upper receiver assembly in 300 AAC Blackout for $399 that is dragging my eyeballs. I could build the rest of the gun for under $100. The hitch is that my favorite gun shop in the City called this morning and said that CZ told them that my new 527 will be shipped soon. That means a decent scope. I guess I should be shopping scopes instead...~Muir
Man Cold. I like that.
could you take a better picture of the front scope mount
I am curious to see how the ring is fixed to the base
1) Stop cleaning it. Old barrels rarely perform well on "deep cleaned" barrels
2) Don't waste money on a Timney trigger they do nothing a Parker Hale M98 trigger doesn't do at 10% of the price
3) no rifle of this era will shoot all factory ammo well, many modern rifles won't shoot all factory ammo
if you can reload or at least find someone who can help you find a load that works
if you can't beg borrow or buy a number of different brands and weight of factory ammo
4) Drop down to 85-95gr with flat bases and avoid ballistic tips - the longer bullet will exaserbate any twist and stability issues
5) get rid of the bipod, regardless of the stock work you have done, the stock design and barrel clearance is not designed for bipod work
6) get someone else to shoot it, eliminate you.
7) the rear shroud can easily be switched for a plain one. PM me and I will send you one and instructions how to fit it once you have a safety enabled trigger
if none of the above work, I will happily take it in, prove it shoots and sell it for you.
its a good looking gun in a popular calibre, built on a time honoured, battle proven, well engineered action.
i truly doubt the inaccuracy you see is down to barrel condition
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