Rethink on Accuracy and Rifles

[ejg]

Dalua,
firstly one should find out how capable your rifle is. Possibly done on a bench. My preference is to get it below 1/2" on most rifles (others have other standards). Only once this is sorted one can judge results from different shooting positions. Otherwise it is like trying to measure something with a broken vernier.
Then of course it depends on what standards you try to achieve in the field. If you are a sunday shooter that say's no to 90% of presented shots due to the animal being a bit too far away, grass too high, wrong angle, too dark, can't see it properly (with the 4mag) etc. well then one does not need very high standards. (Our Landowners regard this group of shooters as "useless")
Of course a, say 3-20 mag scope will give you way better possibilities than a 4 or 6 mag scope. 6 is way too much for quick action in dense cover...way too little if you are looking at a 150m head shot in high grass.... who say's all targets are 6"?
Another advantage of higher mag scopes is to have a much closer look at animals, see if it is a spike or doe, see if the animal might have abnormalities or wounds etc. Some higher mag scopes do not weigh much more than your 6x42 S&B.
edi

 

[Dalua]

who say's all targets are 6"?

People who shoot roe only in the chest, and for whom an attempt at a brain-shot, let alone at 150m, would be an absurdity and an outrage! Your landowners might think they're useless, but there we go.

Another advantage of higher mag scopes is to have a much closer look at animals, see if it is a spike or doe, see if the animal might have abnormalities or wounds etc.

Erst ansprechen, dann anschlagen!

Some higher mag scopes do not weigh much more than your 6x42 S&B.
edi

I'll remember that for when I find my hill-rifle too heavy and/or my 6x42 S&B in some way inadequate!

 

[ejg]

Dalua, you sound like a guy telling a formula one team to install a Fiesta suspension in the formula one car and then at the same time tell them about possible cornering speeds.
Yes with the gear you described one should not head shoot a deer at anything over 100yds maybe not at all.

Improve your gear and your ability and you will see what is possible, make a risk assessment if you wish.
I have enough scopes that can be adjusted to 4 or 6 mag and get badly set up rifles into the workshop constantly to understand what is out there and why some say one cannot shoot this or that at x distance.

edi

 

[Dalua]

Dalua, you sound like a guy telling a formula one team to install a Fiesta suspension in the formula one car and then at the same time tell them about possible cornering speeds.
Yes with the gear you described one should not head shoot a deer at anything over 100yds maybe not at all.

Improve your gear and your ability and you will see what is possible, make a risk assessment if you wish.
I have enough scopes that can be adjusted to 4 or 6 mag and get badly set up rifles into the workshop constantly to understand what is out there and why some say one cannot shoot this or that at x distance.

edi

I'll pass right over the remarks about my gear, ability and passion for risk assessments (apart, clearly, from this mention of your mentioning them ).

How can I put this? The stalking-folk I have seen on ranges (self included) are not F1 shooters with F1 rifles. With few exceptions, they are perfectly ordinary safe, steady road-car shooters with safe, ordinary road-car rifles (whether Ford, Mercedes or Volvo) - comfortable, competent and safe within their limits.

Some of them do indeed have F1 scopes. They do not obviously shoot better than the others, and I hope that in the field their F1 scopes do not lull them into believing that they can go round tight corners in the wet better than than their ability to drive actually makes feasable.

In summary, although Fiesta suspension in a F1 car would seriously impair the F1 driver's performance, F1 suspension in a Fiesta does not make the Fiesta driver into a F1 driver.

I think the Fiesta driver will do better by practising driving his Fiesta properly. It will probably get him everywhere he needs to go.

 

[monarman]

All a bit car related........ but I got the jist of it.

As my old headstalker used to say..... you can only pi $$ with the cock you've got!

 

[ejg]

Dalua,
I have no clue what you are trying to tell us. What are we supposed to do in your opinion apart from mount a 4 or 6 mag scope? Do nothing?

I am pretty sure just about every component on a firearm and the shooter can be improved, is that a bad thing? Do you never practice? Load develop?
In other words the "cock" you have can be improved.


edi

 

[mchughcb]

Seems to be a lot of anxiety of this thread. I think a tikka T3 battue lite in 308 with a good 2.5-10x scope will cover most stalking. The rest is just practice for every conceivable occasion.

 

[Heym SR20]

Well I didnt think that this thread would cause such an interesting debate, but then there is a huge difference in stalkers, their quarry and the ground over which they stalk. Approach to absolute accuracy is very for stalker in the flow country of Northern Scotland or the wide open fields of Wiltshire or Lincolnshire - if you can't take a shot at 200m you are not going to be shooting many deer. Very different requirements for a woodland stalker where a lot my shot is 60 yards. A professional fox shooter will have a very different approach again. Fundamentally you need to be able to put a bullet through the vitals and you and your equipment needs to be able to achieve this for the type of hunting you are doing.

What got me thinking about this has been a recent project where I have added another barrel to my combination to turn it into a double rifle. Talking to German friends about a load for driven boar the advice was big bullets as fast as they will go. And you are only shooting at 40 to 50 metres. I use this gun a lot, I have taken some longish shots with it, but I have one bit of ground where I have shots 150+ And it's a culling exercise - that's where I take the 243 - it clover leafs and has a 4-12 scope and I have the confidence I can hit with it.

 

[nun_hunter]

I hope that in the field their F1 scopes do not lull them into believing that they can go round tight corners in the wet better than than their ability

That says more about the shooter and their mentality than the gear they have. You give an F class shooter an old rifle with iron sights and no mod and I doubt they'd risk a 150m head shot as they understand their gear and their own capability. Give a Sunday shooter an F class rifle and a fair few would suddenly think they're capable of taking shots they'd never dream of before. If someone is unwilling to learn/develop/take feedback there isn't much you can do to improve them and that's a personality trait nothing to do with what kit they use be it cars or rifles.

 

[stubear]

I think good group size (from the rifle) and consistency in achieving said group (from the shooter) are both good things that any shooter should be striving for - It gives you confidence in your kit and your ability, and means that when you pull the trigger you should be reasonably certain as to where the round is going to end up.

The benefit of aiming for small groups from a bench on a range is that gives you your best case scenario - When your heart isnt racing, you're not shooting off sticks in the rain with water in your boots, when you know your target isnt suddenly going to move.... You know that when you remove those variables you can shoot a one hole group at 100m.

So now you know the best case you should go out and practice for other scenarios - Shoot off your sticks, standing, kneeling, shoot off a fence post, maybe run 100m before you take the shot off your sticks and so on. All to simulate the less than ideal scenarios.

So now when you ARE out in the rain, heart rate up from crawling across a tramlines in a field and from the excitement you know that you and the kit have the capability for the one hole group at 100m, but having done the practice you know that its now going to be at best a 3" group at 100m - Still ok though.

Now replay that whole scenario but where the best case off the bench on the range is a 3" group... By the time you're out the field with water in your boots and your heart rate up whats your grouping going to be like then? Six inches? 8 inches? That could be the difference between a clean kill and a gut shot.

So I can understand why we all want our rifles to shoot as accurately as possible under ideal conditions - So that when conditions ARENT ideal we can still be safe in the knowledge of a clean kill.

 

[Dalua]

So I can understand why we all want our rifles to shoot as accurately as possible under ideal conditions - So that when conditions ARENT ideal we can still be safe in the knowledge of a clean kill.

I want the combination of my rifle and me to be able to shootas accurately as necessary under the circumstances in which I'm going to use it.

If I tried to develop the load and technique for shooting a one-hole (or even half-inch) group off the bench, I think I'd need a couple of new barrels before I ever shot a deer.

 

[mchughcb]

Well I didnt think that this thread would cause such an interesting debate, but then there is a huge difference in stalkers, their quarry and the ground over which they stalk. Approach to absolute accuracy is very for stalker in the flow country of Northern Scotland or the wide open fields of Wiltshire or Lincolnshire - if you can't take a shot at 200m you are not going to be shooting many deer. Very different requirements for a woodland stalker where a lot my shot is 60 yards. A professional fox shooter will have a very different approach again. Fundamentally you need to be able to put a bullet through the vitals and you and your equipment needs to be able to achieve this for the type of hunting you are doing.

What got me thinking about this has been a recent project where I have added another barrel to my combination to turn it into a double rifle. Talking to German friends about a load for driven boar the advice was big bullets as fast as they will go. And you are only shooting at 40 to 50 metres. I use this gun a lot, I have taken some longish shots with it, but I have one bit of ground where I have shots 150+ And it's a culling exercise - that's where I take the 243 - it clover leafs and has a 4-12 scope and I have the confidence I can hit with it.

Most scoped doubles should be good for enough for a 200m deer chest shot. If not offload it.

 

[mchughcb]

A drilling on the otherhand should be good for 200m+ with a 6x scope. I may just make a video to demonstrate it.

 

[flying felix]

Who on this forum has a rifle that is shooting more than 75mm groups at 100m when shot by a reasonably competent person on a bench in still conditions?

Me as well, SAKO 85 from new, after 18 months of trying everything have had to bite the bullet and had it rebarrelled with a Krieger varmint barrel.Time on the range is never wasted, it establishes a base line of the rifle and the shooter's capabilities in what should be optimum conditions. Anyone who does not develop consistency on the the range is setting themselves up for problems in the field.

 

[JTO]

Time on the range is never wasted, it establishes a base line of the rifle and the shooter's capabilities in what should be optimum conditions. Anyone who does not develop consistency on the the range is setting themselves up for problems in the field.

I tried to say that on page 4.

 

[User00033]

You've all gone mad. Maybe try and get out more, eh? Bit of exercise, maybe walk up some hills or a small mountain or two? All these little deer in small flat fields surrounded by nice trimmed hedges might be getting to you maybe? Take a special tablet, have a lie down.

Maybe OCD is catching through the interweb? All this one-hole-cloverleaf-resting-benches-quarter-inch obssessing is a whole lot of weirdism from a deer hunting community. These little deers aren't hard to kill, eh... Just shoot them there or thereabouts, you've got about the size of an A4 sheet of paper to work with, hey. A wee little bullet will do the job but someone might tell you you need a big one just in case. Ignore them.

When you're feeling better, go and kill something. Rub blood all over yourself. Roll in the mud. Then go to the gunstore and buy a cheap hunting rifle - any one will do - resist the urge to modify it - it doesn't need modifying - and kill something else. You will see it is just as dead as whatever you shot earlier.

The only hunters who need to obsess with "accuracy" are the talented, skillful, usually very nerdy but equally interesting expert varmint shooters who can hit a magpie at 500m in a 30km/h crosswind. Deerstalkers? Nah. Shooting past 300m is a big no-no anyways it seems, so why bother when MPBR will take all the worry off your shoulders?

 

[bogtrotter]

I want the combination of my rifle and me to be able to shootas accurately as necessary under the circumstances in which I'm going to use it.

If I tried to develop the load and technique for shooting a one-hole (or even half-inch) group off the bench, I think I'd need a couple of new barrels before I ever shot a deer.

Likewise, I was a professional stalker now retired, mostly hill stalking but also a fair but of Roe, as a stalker I had no interest in target shooting last time I shot on a range was over fifty years ago with the ACF I don't understand MOA and while I have a scope with mil dots I have never bothered or needed to work out how to range find with it, I can estimate 200 yards pretty accurately which is just about my max range most shots on the hill being 150 yards or less , even less so for clients.
All my rifle needs to be able to do is put a shot consistently in the cull zone at 200 yards not fancy maybe but it does not need to be .
I like many others was seduced by variable scopes, wish I had not bothered , it never gets moved from 7 used to be 6 but my eyes are not what they used to be you don't need anymore for normal stalking distance in fact when I first started most were using 4x42 IMO 6x42 is about right for most stalking situations.

I was always under the impression that the sport was in the stalking not the shot which should be more or less a foregone conclusion and somewhat of an anti climax, more and more seem to be more interested in shooting rather than the stalking would be snipers with all the latest technology to enable them to take longer and longer shots ,nothing wrong with that in itself but its not stalking.

 

[Erik Hamburger]

You've all gone mad. Maybe try and get out more, eh? Bit of exercise, maybe walk up some hills or a small mountain or two? All these little deer in small flat fields surrounded by nice trimmed hedges might be getting to you maybe? Take a special tablet, have a lie down.

Maybe OCD is catching through the interweb? All this one-hole-cloverleaf-resting-benches-quarter-inch obssessing is a whole lot of weirdism from a deer hunting community. These little deers aren't hard to kill, eh... Just shoot them there or thereabouts, you've got about the size of an A4 sheet of paper to work with, hey. A wee little bullet will do the job but someone might tell you you need a big one just in case. Ignore them.

When you're feeling better, go and kill something. Rub blood all over yourself. Roll in the mud. Then go to the gunstore and buy a cheap hunting rifle - any one will do - resist the urge to modify it - it doesn't need modifying - and kill something else. You will see it is just as dead as whatever you shot earlier.

The only hunters who need to obsess with "accuracy" are the talented, skillful, usually very nerdy but equally interesting expert varmint shooters who can hit a magpie at 500m in a 30km/h crosswind. Deerstalkers? Nah. Shooting past 300m is a big no-no anyways it seems, so why bother when MPBR will take all the worry off your shoulders?

Exactly my sentiment, and it is nice that you call a spade a spade, Dodgyknees. I noticed you are from New Zealand, I visited your Country last year and find a very much more relaxed attitude towards calibers and accuracy than I am used to in the UK. The .243W appears to be King for even the large deer species, in your hunting community I found none of the endless debates whether a Fallow or Red will be too large for this or that bullet. Nice to get some common sense on this forum!

 

[TOMMO.B]

I tried to say that on page 4.

Time is never wasted on the range. But out in the field it is a totally different setup.
I have never herd of anyone having a hard time on the range. But have heard moaning out in the field.
No missed shots on the range, But have seen misses in the field.
many range boys flunk it, as paper is paper. But when it comes to shooting a living beast All the paper punching in the world does not make up for the emotions that they feel for live quarry. So yet again Horses for courses.

 

[bogtrotter]

You've all gone mad. Maybe try and get out more, eh? Bit of exercise, maybe walk up some hills or a small mountain or two? All these little deer in small flat fields surrounded by nice trimmed hedges might be getting to you maybe? Take a special tablet, have a lie down.

Maybe OCD is catching through the interweb? All this one-hole-cloverleaf-resting-benches-quarter-inch obssessing is a whole lot of weirdism from a deer hunting community. These little deers aren't hard to kill, eh... Just shoot them there or thereabouts, you've got about the size of an A4 sheet of paper to work with, hey. A wee little bullet will do the job but someone might tell you you need a big one just in case. Ignore them.

When you're feeling better, go and kill something. Rub blood all over yourself. Roll in the mud. Then go to the gunstore and buy a cheap hunting rifle - any one will do - resist the urge to modify it - it doesn't need modifying - and kill something else. You will see it is just as dead as whatever you shot earlier.

The only hunters who need to obsess with "accuracy" are the talented, skillful, usually very nerdy but equally interesting expert varmint shooters who can hit a magpie at 500m in a 30km/h crosswind. Deerstalkers? Nah. Shooting past 300m is a big no-no anyways it seems, so why bother when MPBR will take all the worry off your shoulders?

Sense at last