Making stalking more accessible

Around my area stalking is so tied up its impossable (so far) to find any free stalking, all big estates and greedy owners, just wanting maximum cash. I have done everything from pest control to just plian asking with very little luck at getting an opening. I got onto one farm, was doing a good job thining the bunnies and got stalking too, great chap, all was well untill one day went to the owner to offer some venison to be told he sold the land earlier in the year! Opps, end of stalking, now hundreds of houses all over it.
I am lucky I am on one of the FC syndicates now, has been very good but the cull targets are set just too high by the FC and we are clearing the areas out. I meet locals in the areas all the time and many of them stalk ajacent land, all I hear from them is No's have dropped on thier land since we started. Sadly between our activity in the woods and the pressure all around I fear we are doing more damage than good now. Stalking is becoming less and less productive for a lot of miles travelled, but the quotas never change.

I dont agree that FC land can't be opened up to public use more freely for those who obtain the competance and can prove it. Yes most non-proffesional hunters cant put the time in of a full time Ranger, but as We have proven, the cull can easily be completed with a handful of competant stalkers. this could so easily be applied to far more areas?

If you travel north west from here there are a lot more opportunities for the small farms, where if you can get an initial door opener there are opportunities. Distance is the problem, not being in the area so getting to know the locals and being able to be seen and prove you are responsable etc, so again not an easy option. I get to get out with a good friend met on the forum in the area, so far for bunnies, great fun, so am now making a little headway, but he has taken 10 years to establish himself in the area.

I also get to go with my best bud from school who emigrated to Alberta Canada every 3 years, very different over there as Albert Boy has said. I get to hunt on a "non-resident alien" Tag (nothing like making you feel welcome) and pay a heap more than my bud does, but it is still very affordable hunting by U.K standards. Yes a lot of kit is needed, we travel 20-60 Km off the highway on oil roads into the bush. Dump the pickup and trailer at a well head, the head on out on a side by side. I am only able to hunt a very limited range of animals as a non-resident, but enjoy getting out at -20-30C with my bud to get his Moose tag filled. then the work starts! If the weather is real cold at least you can drive the machine into the muskeg or over the beaver dams. Its when its warm (-10) that its a real pain as tte groung frost just isnt deep enough!

The U.K has some wonderful stalking, just sadly controlled by too few, must admit the German system I think is better, you are a trained hunter, get allocated land and have to achieve the set targets. No animals are owned by anyone, so I was told by my now retired mentor, never done it myself!
I want to clarify that. You do not get get allocated land and have to achieve set targets, you will have to compete with some other like minded hunters to get a revier lease allocated by the local land owner group "Jagdgenossenschaft" (then all is quiet for the next 9 or 12 years) either by being a known local or as is often the case a richer type from the city outbids you.
 
Stalking is avalible to everyone, just at a price. But I would rather that than not having a clue who’s on what ground. I don’t think roe does at approx £80 per outing is not that expensive.

Agree some people pay more for a round of golf or for a ticket to watch 22 young men run around in shorts for 90 minutes, I think stalking is pretty accessible, if it was too accessible you'd end up with people doing it for corporate days/stag doos like clay pigeon shooting.:doh:
 
I've just come back from Germany and had an interesting conversation with a German friend there. In the UK access to the hunting community is pretty excellent, especially compared to there.

Here you can go out with someone without having passed any test. The barrier to trying the sport is very low. If you know anyone involved in shooting, stalking, etc they can take you for free. If not the fees for cull hunting are on the lower side compared to the rest of Europe. In Germany before you start you need to pass an exam which can take year of study! My Mrs was with me in Germany. She loves stalking with me in the UK and has harvested many deer with me - so much so that she passionately defends the sport and it's ethics to those at her work that don't know about it. But she probably wouldn't have ever tried it if she was German because she wouldn't have put in the effort to get the certificate of 1 day per week for a year(!) without knowing if she liked the sport... At least in the UK it is simple to dip your toe in and find out more.

On a side note, we have resolved that we should take out 2 people a year stalking who would never have done the sport otherwise, or might even be slightly anti, and cook the deer with them afterwards. Hopefully it's a small step making sure that future generations can stalk as well...
 
FC land is owned by the public is it not?
Therefore following the role model of the USA it should be made available to the general public, by a tag system, to suitably qualified deer stalkers.

As for pricing on guided stalking, 2 stalks booked with me within the same 24 hour period is £130, or a single outing is £75, no shot fee, venison available to buy at game dealer rates.
Only additional fee's are for any trophies.
You get to see the stunning countryside we have in Devon whilst stalking deer, can't get any better than that for the price can it?

Cheers

Richard
 
FC land is owned by the public is it not?
Therefore following the role model of the USA it should be made available to the general public, by a tag system, to suitably qualified deer stalkers.

As for pricing on guided stalking, 2 stalks booked with me within the same 24 hour period is £130, or a single outing is £75, no shot fee, venison available to buy at game dealer rates.
Only additional fee's are for any trophies.
You get to see the stunning countryside we have in Devon whilst stalking deer, can't get any better than that for the price can it?

Cheers

Richard

Richard. An interesting idea, but how do you factor in the 2+ years it took me to learn my way around the FC lease that I was party to? Regards JCS
 
Richard. An interesting idea, but how do you factor in the 2+ years it took me to learn my way around the FC lease that I was party to? Regards JCS
True, i was thinking out aloud, but i guess by them already issuing a lease they have sort of followed the Tag system?
A lease will be up for renewal every now and again with the FC won't it so stalkers like yourself could lose out?
Cheers
Richard
 
Richard. An interesting idea, but how do you factor in the 2+ years it took me to learn my way around the FC lease that I was party to? Regards JCS

I was just as safe on my first outing on new ground as I was the last time I went out there years later. I am much more successful now though that I know the ground. Probably much the same as countries where they hunt public land, go to the same place or similar places and you'll be more successful as you learn the ground. Shouldn't necessarily stop us thinking/exploring a tag system.
 
My biggest concern about a tag system is accidents, the forests are getting busier every year. It is getting very difficult to get away from people and machines. In the USA and Canada, 1000 hunters were injured and out of this just under 100 were fatal. To me that is far to many. I still don’t think that the majority of hobby stalkers are good enough to cull the numbers required or have the the freedom from work and family commitments to go to the forest at the drop of a hat when the weather is most suitable.
 
My biggest concern about a tag system is accidents, the forests are getting busier every year. It is getting very difficult to get away from people and machines. In the USA and Canada, 1000 hunters were injured and out of this just under 100 were fatal. To me that is far to many. I still don’t think that the majority of hobby stalkers are good enough to cull the numbers required or have the the freedom from work and family commitments to go to the forest at the drop of a hat when the weather is most suitable.

Indeed.

I wonder if those arguing for more access would be quite so enthusiastic if they had to pass some form of mandatory training and have suitable insurance in order to qualify? I can't see in the modern world how the two would not go hand-in-hand, at least when it comes to public land.

I also have my doubts that it would be acceptable to the general public here in the UK - it doesn't take much to see headlines about "dog walkers terrified by camouflaged snipers roaming the country with high-powered rifles"
 
My biggest concern about a tag system is accidents, the forests are getting busier every year. It is getting very difficult to get away from people and machines. In the USA and Canada, 1000 hunters were injured and out of this just under 100 were fatal. To me that is far to many. I still don’t think that the majority of hobby stalkers are good enough to cull the numbers required or have the the freedom from work and family commitments to go to the forest at the drop of a hat when the weather is most suitable.

Do you have a link where I could read up on those accident rates . We do hear of accidents , but I didn't know it was that high . I'm not overly surprised at those numbers though . There are literally millions of hunters in north America . Thanks in advance .

AB
 
Perhaps I am wrong but speaking to people I know up here in the highlands I think my views are not alone. Unfortunately for me and many others in the highlands if not most of Scotland. The main thing to getting stalking is money. For me to get stalking locally is impossible as the land is owned by sporting estates or worse the RSPB. So unless I pay to go out with the keeper then pay for the venison on top of that there is nothing local. The vast majority of the highlands work like that. The working for it up here doesn't work the same as it may down south. I help out on the local estate but that doesn't mean I'd get free stalking. £500 per stag then buy the venison on top if you want. Some will have trophy fees on top of that.

I'd reckon that the vast majority of FC leases in Scotland are "owned" by someone in England and their syndicates will be made of, mainly English members. That's fair enough but few of those leases are making their culls and a fair majority of those will end up with a contractor coming in to get the numbers down to meet the FC requirements. Plus a lot of the those lease holders will own several leases. So what may help get more stalking available would be to limit leases and syndicate membership to one each. So if your a member or own the lease that's all you can get. Now that would no doubt ruffle a few feathers but to me its fair and would open it up to more folk.
 
The simple fact is that if the lease was Owned by some one in England and the targets are not met. Then the lease is not renewed the next time around.
Stalking a FC beat is a job. Not for a casual one day a month affair.
I for one would not want any tom, dick or harry wandering around my beat as is done in the states.
Our idea of Stalking is worlds apart from our gun toting blast it if it moves American cousins. So there is no comparison.
 
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Indeed.

I wonder if those arguing for more access would be quite so enthusiastic if they had to pass some form of mandatory training and have suitable insurance in order to qualify? I can't see in the modern world how the two would not go hand-in-hand, at least when it comes to public land.

I also have my doubts that it would be acceptable to the general public here in the UK - it doesn't take much to see headlines about "dog walkers terrified by camouflaged snipers roaming the country with high-powered rifles"


With more people out and about shooting hopefully it would by default become more acceptable to the average member of public who currently has no idea, and most likely no real opinion of deer stalking.
 
The simple fact is that if the lease was Owned by some one in England and the targets are not met. Then the lease is not renewed the next time around.
Stalking a FC beat is a job. Not for a casual one day a month affair.
I for one would not want any tom, dick or harry wandering around my beat as is done in the states.
Our idea of Stalking is worlds apart from our gun toting blast it if it moves American cousins. So there is no comparison.



I think that's a bit of a generalisation and probably unfair to the majority of American hunters. You mention any Tom Dick or Harry walking round your beat. Well if you own the land and that 'beat' then fair enough they're trespassing but if you're just leasing it then it sounds a bit like the 'i can afford it so I'm alright Jack' which is something I have encountered way too much in British fieldsports.
 
The simple fact is that if the lease was Owned by some one in England and the targets are not met. Then the lease is not renewed the next time around.
Stalking a FC beat is a job. Not for a casual one day a month affair.
QUOTE]
The English part of my first reply was not decrying the English for having stalking up in gods country but very few syndicates made up of English members will be able to spend the required amount of time on the ground to get the culls required. Some will and hats off to them. And no doubt some Scots holding leases may be in the same boat but I'd think the ground would be covered more often by a syndicate made up with more "local" members.
I think calling it a job is stretching things. Yes it may be tough stalking in many cases but its not a job. As for if targets are not met the lease wont be renewed. That may be the case as written but you see very few leases up for renewal after previously being let, especially after a year. And even less likely to be re let if there are no susceptible areas within the lease ie recently re planted. More likely that a contractor would be called in for 1 or 2 nights and catch up with the cull. Its less hassle for the FC.
 
Its up to us to make stalking more accessable

By us I mean people with permission to shoot land

I was very lucky to meet Willow Bank and Jo Farmer on this site and be taken out with them. Despite a sad and silly later falling out, I was also very lucky to have met up with Tony from the original DAGS group and get access to very affordable stalking

I have made a point of trying to pass this on. Yesterday I took out a new stalker FOC and let him try out a 243 and a 308 to make sure he was capabul of a humain kill prior to arranging a stalking day with him again FOC

In the past three years since getting my own permissions I have tried to make the stalking as accessable as possible on a non profit bassis.

The cost of running the sites has not been cheep with a total of 16 high seats and two quads + land owner costs but we have managed to keep it down sub 500 per year and we don't bother with kill fees trophies or meet charges.

Stalking brings me great pleasure but I also get pleasure out of running the syndicate and helping as many as I can. I am not alone in this as various members who can have stepped up and put in hard cash and or hard work to make it all happen

I feel thers a lot of selfishness and closed shop protective attitudes when it comes to permissions.

If this were to change and permission holders made a point of making stalking accessable to more people, Id like to think it would benefit us all

I feel lucky be able to stalk and I feel lucky to have met some great people since takeing up the hobby.
 
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With more people out and about shooting hopefully it would by default become more acceptable to the average member of public who currently has no idea, and most likely no real opinion of deer stalking.

Much as I might like to think that would be the case, I fear that ship has well and truly sailed.

Sadly I see nothing to suggest that the general public - aided and abetted by the media in general and social media in particular - is becoming anything but increasingly alienated to firearms, the means of food production, and what they typically then bundle together as "shooting for pleasure".

I hope I am wrong.
 
I've just come back from Germany and had an interesting conversation with a German friend there. In the UK access to the hunting community is pretty excellent, especially compared to there.

Here you can go out with someone without having passed any test. The barrier to trying the sport is very low. If you know anyone involved in shooting, stalking, etc they can take you for free. If not the fees for cull hunting are on the lower side compared to the rest of Europe. In Germany before you start you need to pass an exam which can take year of study! My Mrs was with me in Germany. She loves stalking with me in the UK and has harvested many deer with me - so much so that she passionately defends the sport and it's ethics to those at her work that don't know about it. But she probably wouldn't have ever tried it if she was German because she wouldn't have put in the effort to get the certificate of 1 day per week for a year(!) without knowing if she liked the sport... At least in the UK it is simple to dip your toe in and find out more.

On a side note, we have resolved that we should take out 2 people a year stalking who would never have done the sport otherwise, or might even be slightly anti, and cook the deer with them afterwards. Hopefully it's a small step making sure that future generations can stalk as well...




The German training system that one has to go through to prepare oneself for the hunting assessments and exams are very rigorous indeed. However, there is nothing that prevents a novice from joining a Jagdschein holder ( hunting license holder) and watching what is involved in various tasks, they just can't shoot at live quarry, which is no bad thing.
One of the main subjects of study in the Jagdschein preparation course is conservation and agricultural practices and forestry . In Germany, the killing of a Game animal, is a very tiny part of a much bigger picture and that is obviously conservation.
Other key areas of study and assessment are: safety, flora and fauna, hunting law, diseases and pests , handling of game, food hygiene, hunting tradition and history, hunting signals , tracking wounded game , gun handling and ability to shoot in 7 different disciplines, hunting formations, internal external and terminal ballistics for revolvers, semi automatic pistols, bolt action rifles, semi automatic rifles, shotguns, and combination guns such as drillings. In the preparation course the average student will shoot thousands of clay pigeons, and hundreds to thousands of centrefire cartridges at moving and static targets. It makes the DSC1 and 2 and the DMQ look like an infant school reading test.
To a German hunter, the concept of a person taking a rifle and shooting at a live creature , prior to having successfully passed the training and exams required to hold a Jagdschein ,just because someone wants to see if they enjoy killing something, is laughable.
Having completed the German Jagdschein exams and assessments, and being a Jagdschein holder myself, i can guarantee you that you can hunt far more freely and at lower cost in Germany than you can here if you don't have access to your own hunting ground. In short, this is to do with the German hunting Revier system which means that the hunting rights are not directly related to land ownership, but rather to the person or people or group that have taken on the responsibility to manage a particular revier. It is quite common for villages to have quite large hunting Reviers that are jointly funded and run by the hunters in that village or the surrounding area. So, unless someone is totally skint and can't afford a few hundred euros a year to join a syindicate, or is unable to remain friends with other hunters in their local area , they will always have lots of hunting opportunities in Germany, many of them costing nothing at all.
I doubt there will ever be a hunting revier system here in England but it is possible for people from the uk to get a temporary two week visitors hunting permit in Germany if they have a Jagdschein holder who can vouch for them and invites them on a hunting trip in Germany. For this you need to have completed at least a Dsc1 and hold a valid fac and european fap. Sadly, I think that after Brexit, this may become rather less simple for non Jagdschein holding British hunters though.

Kinest regards, Olaf
 
Its up to us to make stalking more accessable

By us I mean people with permission to shoot land

I was very lucky to meet Willow Bank and Jo Farmer on this site and be taken out with them. Despite a sad and silly later falling out, I was also very lucky to have met up with Tony from the original DAGS group and get access to very affordable stalking

I have made a point of trying to pass this on. Yesterday I took out a new stalker FOC and let him try out a 243 and a 308 to make sure he was capabul of a humain kill prior to arranging a stalking day with him again FOC

In the past three years since getting my own permissions I have tried to make the stalking as accessable as possible on a non profit bassis.

The cost of running the sites has not been cheep with a total of 16 high seats and two quads + land owner costs but we have managed to keep it down sub 500 per year and we don't bother with kill fees trophies or meet charges.

Stalking brings me great pleasure but I also get pleasure out of running the syndicate and helping as many as I can. I am not alone in this as various members who can have stepped up and put in hard cash and or hard work to make it all happen

I feel thers a lot of selfishness and closed shop protective attitudes when it comes to permissions.

If this were to change and permission holders made a point of making stalking accessable to more people, Id like to think it would benefit us all

I feel lucky be able to stalk and I feel lucky to have met some great people since takeing up the hobby.



I applaude that I really do .......
Then unfortunately there is the “ other” side of the coin which many on here have experience of....

You meet someone thru various means ...sites like these, locally If someone moved in etc.....
You get on initially and you take the guy out and he seems appreciable and very happy .....then you find out said individually has been to land owner and tried to gazump you behind your back ....or you turn up one day and he’s there with his mates all tooled up .

I am very fortunate with the bits I have ...and the syndicate I’m in we all a known entity to one another .....

But I’d be wary of an unknown after seeing above happen ......and other like stories .

Human nature’s not always nice .....people often ask where I stalk ...I don’t tell them ....

Am I fiercely protective ? Yes .....have I the right to? Maybe not but I love what I do where I do it ......and if I was 100% on somebody I’d have them out in a heartbeat ......but lot of folk willing to stick knife in your back unfortunately

Paul
 
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