stevenedwards
Well-Known Member
Why would I check a matter of fact or is it that you are questioning the truth of my statement
What is the fascination with short barrels in the UK
- Thread starter Tulloch
- Start date
Ho! Pfeiffer .243?
Just that you claim that a 26" .243 is nearly a foot shorter than a 20" Creedmore (11.75" shorter you stated). Both wearing the same muzzle can. Which sounds like nonsense to me.
Barrel length is the length to the bolt face. Not a variable. No way that a 26" barrelled rifle ends up a a foot shorter than a 20" job. Stocks of course do differ. But not by a foot, or more.
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Deermanagement
Well-Known Member
After 35 years of using a .243 at a go to rifle, I'm looking forward to developing loads for a new 6.5 CR Carbon Wolf. Went for 20" because I went down the moderator route on the basis of recoil reduction more than noise reduction. Also went Lawrence Precision with only 80mm overhang. Rifle balances on the shoulder, muzzle up or forward perfectly so will definitely be good for woodland and we'll see how it performs over open ground and distance before using it in the field. Somehow, I don't think I'll struggle, as around 250 yds is my usual self imposed limit, not because I can't hit the spot further but I can't always guarantee the spot hasn't moved by the time a the bullet from either .243 or 6.5 gets there.
Put in a .243 and .30-06 part-ex for the 6.5 but hung onto a .243 which will be the spring and summer rifle. Have to say however, the .243 is a superb round from Muntjac to Sika and Red, with the right bullet.
I wonder if the deer will know the difference, .243 or 6.5?
Well, it's basically the difference between a 6.17mm bullet and a 6.5 mm one. CM faster twist and heavier bullet options widen it out, if you take that up. Otherwise they are identical, but the CM seems to be "the next great thing" at the moment. Let's review this ten years hence and see where it's gone.
With a CM you are perhaps future-proofed when we have to shoot non-lead bullets over 100 grains (Scotland), which a .243 can't do. It's best around 70 grains of lead.
Just as say a 20" barrel is little bit short to get the best out of a .243.
Go .308, the base cartridge for all of these, and everything changes.
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Deermanagement
Well-Known Member
Definitely a review, I'll hopefully contribute.
DM
stevenedwards
Well-Known Member
Interesting how those who know the least often have the strongest opinions.
stevenedwards
Well-Known Member
You are absolutely correct. Wonderful little thing.
Overlay
Well-Known Member
Always amazes me
Rifle manufacturers spend a huge amount of money on research and field testing getting the perfect balance, ballistics and accuracy
Then some pay a great deal of money for a harmonised well built rifle then promptly pay out to have it cut up and then moan about ballistics and accuracy. And what a crap rifle it’s turned out to be
I sold a really good and very accurate rifle to a guy, ( Sako 75) I took him out pre purchase and he shot a ragged hole with it 2 x 5 shots
He had the barrel chopped and it now shoots like a scatter gun and the ballistics are terrible, it now sits in his cabinet unused, if I’d known he was going to butcherise it I wouldn’t have sold it, I’d rather keep it myself
22 WMR a guy had it shortened - never accurate again he sold it off in the end and bought another ???
Shortened .243 had it re crowned TWICE before it shot anywhere near reasonable
Beggars belief
Rifle manufacturers spend a huge amount of money on research and field testing getting the perfect balance, ballistics and accuracy
Then some pay a great deal of money for a harmonised well built rifle then promptly pay out to have it cut up and then moan about ballistics and accuracy. And what a crap rifle it’s turned out to be
I sold a really good and very accurate rifle to a guy, ( Sako 75) I took him out pre purchase and he shot a ragged hole with it 2 x 5 shots
He had the barrel chopped and it now shoots like a scatter gun and the ballistics are terrible, it now sits in his cabinet unused, if I’d known he was going to butcherise it I wouldn’t have sold it, I’d rather keep it myself
22 WMR a guy had it shortened - never accurate again he sold it off in the end and bought another ???
Shortened .243 had it re crowned TWICE before it shot anywhere near reasonable
Beggars belief
As an engineer I work with facts and data. Not opinions. So, please check your "facts" again, then we can have a polite discussion about barrel length, which, as I said, is precisely measurable.
Now a handy little kipplauf, such as a Bergara B13 with a 16.5" barrel could be very sweet. No long bolt to throw either, keeps it as short as possible. Similarly a Blaser can be pretty short, if you want a magazine.
Sounds as if a completely useless "gunsmith" was involved. But shortening a .243 is generally a bad idea, if you want to keep it legal.
I don't know about .22WMR, but for .22LR about 14" is ideal, even as short as 12.5" if using subsonic stuff. Little benefit in anything longer, possibly they just slow the bullet down. Which is why top quality .22s such as Weihrauch, Anschutz etc. come with 14" barrels from the factory. For .308, as short as 16", up to 20" works perfectly, saves a bit of weight at the muzzle, added back on by the can.
Even .223 works very well as short as 16"
It's down to correct powder choice, and load development. Not factory ammo.
For target shooting with open sights, a long barrel gives a better sight radius, so useful.
Black powder ? Well 30" is about right.
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I recon most rifle manufacturers don't give a toss and only build what the market wants or what is just in fashion. As usual some take things to extremes. For me a 20" barrel is normal and a good compromise when using a moderator. If performance is an issue of lost fps then just get a different cal or longer barrel. FTR guys think a 30" barrel is short.... even for 308 … it all depends on what you shoot and how far. I have taken a deer over 500m with a 20"308, those who need more power/speed how far do they intend to shoot deer at?
Cutting a barrel, recently I spoke to a barrel manufacturer who hand laps the match grade barrels. He said that the barrels are somewhat choked and he would prefer to make my barrel close to the finished length. This type of barrel might not shoot as well if shortened. Shortening a barrel can be a bit of a gamble.
edi
There is a wide range of shot guns length barrels also there prices will compare with many rifles...
You won't find someone buying a 30" £1000.00 shot gun and cutting 5 & 7/8th of it....
having chokes machined in it etc as they will look for one the length they need.
However it is done with rifles, my Rem 700's are both R/H plastic stocks with me being L/H my last 325 browning was second hand with a left cast and the right length stock.
My 425 had a right cast so I had it pulled over (£50.00) then cut the stock down to length my self as I can do that quite well.
The .243 has a drone on top which left me having to fit a cheek riser ( with gaffer tape) to centre my eye ball as you cant lower the mounts any more....
I will guess the chopped rifle man wont have lowered the family car suspension to the floor then lobbed 4-6" of the roof pillars as it will be to impractical for the school run...( yes one or two will have).
From my understanding manufactures make and test their barrels to get the optimum spin etc....
To date I have not seen a sniper rifle cut down to as it was to long...lol
Always exceptions I will say that but over all a lot of time and research stacks up the odds.
Tim.243
Sonicdmb73
Well-Known Member
Eh yer what?
I couldn’t agree more the very reason why the police allowed much more widespread use of moderators. When I started fullbore mods were the exception not the rule. Was the Health and Safety at work act, specifically Forestry Commission application of it. That opened the floodgates as it were.
Personally after a lifetime (as far as I have got anyway) of noise through shooting, music (DJ) and machinery from a young age (building and farming the family trades). I would rather carry an extra pound on my rifle than lose anymore hearing. Or make my tinnitus any worse for that matter.
As shorter barrel makes it easier to do that. My bolt action 22 is 16” but my semi auto is 12.5” far handier out of the truck window.
My 222 doesn’t seem to lose anything at around 20” I don’t recall the exact length.
My 270 on the other hand is almost factory length of barrel and as a Parker Hale is I believe about 24” less whatever came off for threading.
Optimum barrel length is more to do with powder burn than it is to do with velocity for deer stalking. The match guys go very long to squeeze every fps out of a barrel as they are trying to avoid the transonic zone at 1200 yds and minimise wind drift at long range. We have to worry much less about that as even at 300 meters the difference in wind drift between 3000 fps and 2800 fps is not significant.
In our stalking rifles we should be matching our barrel length with 100% powder burn inside the barrel. The more over bore a chambering is the longer you will need to go in barrel length. A 308 Win will achieve 100% burn in an 18" barrel as it's a relatively small powder charge for the volume of the bore. Try running a 300 WM at 18" and there will be a lot of un burnt powder exiting the barrel and burning in fresh air causing significant noise and muzzle flash. Even a 270 Win at 18" suffers from less than optimal powder burn and is pretty nasty to shoot.
If you choose to put a moderator onto a barrel that is not burning 100% of the powder you end up with the remaining powder burning inside the moderator. Alloy moderators are not designed to have powder burnt inside them and the result will be a quickly worn out moderator at best.
So when thinking about how much easier your blunderbuss would be to carry in the woods with a 16" barrel as you don't like your moderator going "ping" against the trees as you walk under them, just give a thought as to what the minimum barrel length is for your chambering rather than what some bloke on the internet did with his 308 Win. It's physics, not fashion.
In our stalking rifles we should be matching our barrel length with 100% powder burn inside the barrel. The more over bore a chambering is the longer you will need to go in barrel length. A 308 Win will achieve 100% burn in an 18" barrel as it's a relatively small powder charge for the volume of the bore. Try running a 300 WM at 18" and there will be a lot of un burnt powder exiting the barrel and burning in fresh air causing significant noise and muzzle flash. Even a 270 Win at 18" suffers from less than optimal powder burn and is pretty nasty to shoot.
If you choose to put a moderator onto a barrel that is not burning 100% of the powder you end up with the remaining powder burning inside the moderator. Alloy moderators are not designed to have powder burnt inside them and the result will be a quickly worn out moderator at best.
So when thinking about how much easier your blunderbuss would be to carry in the woods with a 16" barrel as you don't like your moderator going "ping" against the trees as you walk under them, just give a thought as to what the minimum barrel length is for your chambering rather than what some bloke on the internet did with his 308 Win. It's physics, not fashion.
Hornet 6
Well-Known Member
The facts are easily checked, just that you can't be bothered, as you find it easier to tell other they are wrong.
Thing is its you thats wrong.
Pfeirer Waffen, 26 inch barrel, and about 27.5 total length, mine was in 6mmPPCusa.
Neil.
mchughcb
Well-Known Member
The fascination with short barrels?
What is the fascination with long barrels?
Having something short means being able to move quietly through thick scrub without it catching on everything.
Oh, that's right everyone else is shooting off the back paddock from the hedge row. Okay then, go the long barrel with the extra 25fps and knock yourself out.
I present to you the short 24" version
What is the fascination with long barrels?
Having something short means being able to move quietly through thick scrub without it catching on everything.
Oh, that's right everyone else is shooting off the back paddock from the hedge row. Okay then, go the long barrel with the extra 25fps and knock yourself out.
I present to you the short 24" version
Lovely looking toy. What's with the backwards trigger? Why did you let it go ? Now, what is the procedure to reload a single shot Pfeifer ? Somewhat slow I suspect, after you have fannied about with the butt plate, maybe tried to extract a tight case, and so on.
As I said before, a 26" barrel can never be shorter (nearly a foot shorter) than say a 20" one. Except in fantasy land by a dreamer. No names, no packdrill.
Yes you can build very short rifles, not using bolt actions and magazines, but to what real purpose ? Other than looking cute.
It's a trend at the moment with airguns, they all seem to be "bullpupped". Like the Pfeifer. Good stock fit and alignment with the sights, close to the boreline, not really a consideration.
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Sonicdmb73
Well-Known Member
I think it’s confusing two separate measurements overall length and barrel length. The former being how long the rifle is, the latter chamber to muzzle.
Short can be very handy, but isn’t always best. Take the M4 rifles with short barrel no longer meeting the original requirements of range and penetration. The British and others have bullpup rifles longer barrel in the same overall length. Bullpup can be the solution to a problem. It is sometimes an unnecessary solution to a non existent problem IMO
anyway especially with an airgun at 12flb’s.
Personally I would rather have too long than too short.
The shortest barrelled rifle I own is my Marlin which is an 18" barrel, but it uses a relatively fast powder so you dont get a huge flash out the end when you fire it.
My .25-06 is 24" and my Win Mag is 26", and both seem to be spot on for performance. I certainly wouldnt chop any of them shorter.
The shortest barrelled rifle I own is my Marlin which is an 18" barrel, but it uses a relatively fast powder so you dont get a huge flash out the end when you fire it.
My .25-06 is 24" and my Win Mag is 26", and both seem to be spot on for performance. I certainly wouldnt chop any of them shorter.
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