What is the fascination with short barrels in the UK

[Hornet 6]

Lovely looking toy. What's with the backwards trigger? Why did you let it go ? Now, what is the procedure to reload a single shot Pfeifer ? Somewhat slow I suspect, after you have fannied about with the butt plate, maybe tried to extract a tight case, and so on.

As I said before, a 26" barrel can never be shorter (nearly a foot shorter) than say a 20" one. Except in fantasy land by a dreamer. No names, no packdrill.

Yes you can build very short rifles, not using bolt actions and magazines, but to what real purpose ? Other than looking cute.

It's a trend at the moment with airguns, they all seem to be "bullpupped". Like the Pfeifer. Good stock fit and alignment with the sights, close to the boreline, not really a consideration.

Its not the trigger, its the cocking lever, forward to cock, reloading is as fast as another single shot.
As for length, well it has a 26" barrel, and its a foot shorter than nearly every rifle with a 20 inch barrel.
As for extracting tight cases, no issues at all, open latch, lift breach and out falls the case.
Sold only because my firearms dept decided after I bought it for "deer and fox" that with factory expanding amunition it
wasn't 'deer legal' even though it is not possible to buy factory ammo, and hand loads were easily legal.

Neil.

By the way your engineer status has slipped so far it's in danger of strangling you.

 

[User00033]

@ejg

My 13yr son just saw me looking at this rifle. He's asked me if I have a semi.

He wasn't referring to AR15.

That's boootiful.

 

[ejg]

Dodgy, that rifle annoyed quite a few at 600m competitions.
It felt really nice even with moderator.
edi

 

[Sharpie]

Its not the trigger, its the cocking lever, forward to cock, reloading is as fast as another single shot.
As for length, well it has a 26" barrel, and its a foot shorter than nearly every rifle with a 20 inch barrel.
As for extracting tight cases, no issues at all, open latch, lift breach and out falls the case.
Sold only because my firearms dept decided after I bought it for "deer and fox" that with factory expanding amunition it
wasn't 'deer legal' even though it is not possible to buy factory ammo, and hand loads were easily legal.

Neil.

By the way your engineer status has slipped so far it's in danger of strangling you.

I do like the concept of the Pfeifer, but lets face it, you (or was it you, ISTR it was stevenedwards) started off by making a contentious statement, not explaining that you were talking about overall length, comparing apples with oranges.

Probably the shortest bullpup. So sorry that you gave yours up, what calibre was it that was judged not deer legal ?

It could actually be made even shorter, UK minimum overall length for a rifle is 60 cm (24"), losing about 3.5". That would still give you plenty of barrel.

But, having tried a few bullpups (air rifles only), I did not get on with the raised sight line above the barrel, strange exaggerated trajectory and sensitivity to cant. Generally optics work best mounted as close to the bore as possible.

An interesting project might be to make a stock to take a standard bolt action magazine rifle action, with the barrel raised into the cheekpiece. Say a 16" .308, or a micro-action 6.5 Grendel for small deer. Just sort out a safe trigger linkage.

BTW, my engineering qualifications are impeccable, but they are merely Honours degrees in in Applied Physics and Electronics, a Masters in Microelectronics Technology, a Vickers Apprenticeship through the vacations whilst working my way through Uni, and 6 months at de Havilland college studying Engineering Practice, part 2, sponsored by British Aerospace.

So I do know my way around metal too. And have lots of bits of paper to prove it.

I'm also very good with numbers, and research, still having an enquiring mind. I don't get to shoot many deer (I have to pay for outings), but when I do I like to get it right. And eat it all myself, with friends and family.

It's a bit sad to be shouted down in this manner. From what you have said, once you had a Pfeifer but weren't allowed to use it. Now you don't. Which I think sums things up.

Not sure why I am bothering to respond actually, really it's nothing personal, maybe back off a bit, or just ignore me. If you met me we might get on.

 

[Sharpie]

Some actual small foldy uppy things that get used, not just for stalking: Heavy of course, different purposes.

RPA Rangemaster STBY. 16"

http://rpadefence.com/pdfs/brochures/rangemaster762stby.pdf

Steelcore LSR CYCLONE - Steelcore Designs Limited

Very similar, there was a falling out at RPA, a split, but they are much the same, and made in the same places. I've used them both, very very good. Steelcore even do a model for hunters with a wood stock, which seems a bit unnecessary to me.

RPA also have their 16" Woodland Stalker, which is also a very good rifle. In the .30 calibre.

 

[VSS]

What a thread !!!

Funnily enough it's never even occurred to me to measure the lengths of my rifle barrels. Some are a bit shorter than others I noticed, but that's as far as it goes. Is there any practical reason for knowing the precise details? To be honest, when I squeeze the trigger I'm more interested in what's happening 100 yards or more in front of me, rather than 24". I suppose if I wasn't getting desired result (ie, dead deer) I might start to question the finer points of my rifle and set up, but until then....

 

[Dan Newcombe]

Like VSS i have no idea how long either of my barrels are but the Mauser M12 seems a bit longer than the Tikka M595 - both seem to work though.

I can see that when using them in and out of cars and in thick undergrowth a short barrel is handy but there is always a trade off with noise, velocity etc but in the real world does it make a significant difference IF you know the actual speed of the bullet.

My judgement is basically - all together (mod etc) it should fit across the back seat of my car - any longer and it will be a pain in the arse!

 

[Sharpie]

There is a fascination for short handy rifles. Easy to carry and transport discretely, say when travelling by rail or air, or just to fit in a small gun safe. Or the boot of a modest car. Take-down, bull-pupped, folding stock, all interesting ways to do this. If you are a small person, like me, and carry muzzle-down, then a long rifle can be unwieldy. My very experienced first guide insisted I carry muzzle-down, me being only 5 1/2 feet tall, him 6 1/2 feet. His, not joking, his reason was that if something went wrong with the handling, or the rifle, he'd rather be shot in the foot than the head, or see the bullet go into the ground, not fly miles away into the air.

FWIW, his estate rifle was a .270, cut down to 12.5", with a good over-barrel moderator. Handy. Not convinced it was entirely deer-legal, he assured me so, so, with his hand loads. Soft points, 135 grains ISTR. Very smooth to shoot. For high-seat work we took his conventional 30-06, about 26" I'd guess.

NDs do happen, and many safety catches aren't really, just something to block the trigger. Not a de-cocker, or something that actually locks the firing pin, blocks a hammer, requires a lever to be gripped into position, or something really good like a Lee Enfield that locks the firing pin, cocks on closing, and can be de-cocked or cocked manually etc.

A bit of tape over the muzzle too, to keep the rain out, or avoid plugging the barrel in a fall. Sometimes we do trip over.

One manufacturer even puts the safety release inside the trigger guard, I've always thought that's just an accident waiting to happen, particularly if wandering about in woodland. One twig caught up there and ...

I've got a bit of a thing about good safety systems, since we are taught here to carry our rifles loaded and ready to go when in the field.

But that's another discussion.

 

[VSS]

I suppose it is very convenient to have a gun that'll fit in a violin case.

 

[Kalahari]

I suppose it is very convenient to have a gun that'll fit in a violin case.

Only if you wantsomething that will fire fully auto and clear a crowded speakeasy!

David.

 

[kenbro]

Surely the optimum barrel length isn't for the calibre per se, it's for the particular load you happen to be feeding it. If a load has an optimum length of 21 3/4", say, running it through a longer barrel won't have any adverse effects beyond an infinitesimal drop in muzzle velocity that will have no effect at all down range; but a load that requires a 26" barrel (for example) to complete its burn will never perform properly or achieve its accuracy potential when driven down a barrel that is too short.

Accuracy potential not compromised by short barrel.
Ken.

 

[kenbro]

Looking at this study, bare in mind laws are different here, the round they were shooting would start off at legal deer speeds for shooting Reds and Sika in Scotland but after losing 350fps by shortening the barrel it would be 100fps lower than the 2450 fps needed to be legal in Scotland .

Now those that reload might be surprised if they ran their deer legal rounds through a chrono probably finding out that they are shooting far lower speeds than they expect . Proved this on a mates rifle where his .243 is shooting 100gr at 2700fps when SAMMI specs say he should be shooting 3100fps . My .243 shoots 3065fps but I am 2.2gr above SAMMI recomendations .

If you dont have laws governing legal speeds for deer then 2350fps is acceptable and defo not slow but to make a legal lawful kill in this country you have to be wise to what speeds your running .

Also just to add 350fps drop if your a target shooter is a significant amount data change . Dont get me wrong you will still be accurate specially with a bullet with a higher BC and bare in mind thats what these guys are using but if your using a lower BC bullet such as say the Prohunter which .37 over a Gameking which is .49 then your going to see significant data change with 350fps loss because you chopped your barrel.

The reason why this is important as barrel chopping in this country is more prevelant over barrel replacement mainly due to cost and not needing a variation. Its all well chopping and recrowning but that inch or two thats being lopped off can cause multiple factors. Might actually take the load your running from legal to illegal.

Moderators are a big deal here, not just for health and safety but it does reduce recoil and muzzle flip allowing the shooter to keep target acquisition for multiple shots with larger cals , shortening the barrel may make your rifle look better but it does increase wear on the moderator

So a lot to think about.

Surely MV Is academic?
Is the legal MV too much for a 25 mtr. shot, and, at what range does it become not enough for a humane shot?
Some drive their bullets too fast for them to perform properly on impact.
I’ve never bothered whether MV is borderline,or not.
Ken.

 

[Tulloch]

Surely MV Is academic?
Is the legal MV too much for a 25 mtr. shot, and, at what range does it become not enough for a humane shot?
Some drive their bullets too fast for them to perform properly on impact.
I’ve never bothered whether MV is borderline,or not.
Ken.

The OP was just academic ,

I am not making a statement to change everyones mind , I prefer a faster bullet but I also like a higher BC and to get both a longer barrel is needed but trying to get one that is factory in the UK is hard ,

 

[benzac]

I been speaking to a mate in the States, in fact going through what calibres are available over here and whats on sale as I ma thinking of getting rid of my .270 and .243 and we come to the conclusion that Uk has a fetish for short barrels and how much muzzle velocity is lost by shortening them

Thoughts.

 

[kenbro]

The facts are easily checked, just that you can't be bothered, as you find it easier to tell other they are wrong.
Thing is its you thats wrong.
Pfeirer Waffen, 26 inch barrel, and about 27.5 total length, mine was in 6mmPPCusa.

Neil. View attachment 129858

Did you and me share that same rifle at different times?
Ken.

 

[Lateral]

The OP was just academic ,

I am not making a statement to change everyones mind , I prefer a faster bullet but I also like a higher BC and to get both a longer barrel is needed but trying to get one that is factory in the UK is hard ,

Isn't the BC determined by the weight, and design of a bullet, for a given calibre ? And, I seem to recall that the BC of a bullet, is commonly higher at a lower velocity ?

I'm under the impression that a higher BC only has any value at longer distances ?

 

[NigelM]

Isn't the BC determined by the weight, and design of a bullet, for a given calibre ? And, I seem to recall that the BC of a bullet, is commonly higher at a lower velocity ?

I'm under the impression that a higher BC only has any value at longer distances ?

You're right Lateral. BC is mainly design related, longer for calibre bullets tending to have higher bc's than short for calibre. Nose design and tail design also significantly influence. Weight does make a difference - partly in that longer for calibre tend to be heavier than short for calibre, but as you move up from .224 to .338 the good ones tend to get better in terms of BC. I'm not sure whether this is entirely weight related, but I think it is a factor.

The BC of round nose flat tail bullets does tend to increase as velocity decreases. The Sierra 6.5mm 120 ProHunter being a good example. However the VLD type bullets and most with a pointy nose and a boat tail tend to reduce in BC as velocity decreases. There is no one rule for all bullets.

BC has a huge influence on long range shooting. High BC gives a much better chance of staying supersonic as you reach out to 1000m and beyond and also makes a huge difference to wind drift and energy delivered. However, it's not just long range that benefits.

Take the humble 270 Win out to a range of 300m, about as far as we should be comfortable taking a deer. Cross of 15 mph. Compare a Norma Soft Point 130g at 3050 fps with a Hornady 145 ELDX at 2900 fps in the rifle I was loading for at the weekend. These were actual chronographed results rather than what was written on the packet.

Drop at 300m with the 130's was 13.1". The 145's dropped 13.5", so nothing in it.
Wind drift at 300m with the 130's was 14.3". The 145's drifted 9.6", so almost 5" less - the difference between a hit and a miss.
Energy delivered by the 130's was 1411 ftLb. The 145's delivered 1764 FtLb - 25% more.

So even for stalking, BC does make a significant difference both in terms of wind drift and energy delivered. If you're woodland stalking and rarely take a shot beyond 100m then you can ignore it, but on the hill, especially when culling hinds and range is being stretched a bit, is worth considering.

 

[Lateral]

Thanks, confirms my understanding.

 

[User00033]

Yup, BC counts. I think oftentimes the number at which it "kicks in" so to speak is exaggerated, you'll see guys claiming that its not necessary to have high BC bullets until you're shooting out to 500m. But the ballistics tables for a given cartridge clear that up.

I tend to hold for wind, using the width of the shoulder as a visual guide. I'll read the wind hold off Strelok and make a note of both the mil value and centimetre value. Being able to visualise the length of a 30cm ruler at all ranges, relative to a red deer's shoulder, is very useful, and easily learned by deliberating shooting A0 plotting paper on plywood with a stiff crosswind.

The point is the a high BC reduced wind hold is a lot easier to visualise, usually you are able to maintain the crosshair on the animal, rather than having to hang it out in space, or somewhere around the tail. Past a certain point though, you need to dial in windage.

It's so much easier, that my current fascination (building a barrel burning 1:8" 28 Nosler and 195gr Bergers) is specifically because of the significantly reduced wind holds.

None of which is any more relevant to short barrels than my bag.

 

[NigelM]

It's so much easier, that my current fascination (building a barrel burning 1:8" 28 Nosler and 195gr Bergers) is specifically because of the significantly reduced wind holds.

Now that sounds interesting.

I've gone the other way. Currently waiting for a 24" barrelled 6.5 Lapua barrel with a 1:7.5 twist specifically for a 150 SMK with a G7 BC of 0.355 running at 2600 fps. In terms of wind drift it out performs the 123 Scenar which run at 2980 fps by 0.5 Mils at 1000 meters - 50cm. It is much more about the bullet than the velocity. And all that with no recoil.

Your 28 Nosler/195 Berger combination will be stunning, a turbo charged 7mm Practical I would think. Can't wait to hear the updates. It's going to need to weigh a bit.