What is the fascination with short barrels in the UK

[User00003]

ok ok ok guys...but honestly, if you could choose between a 7mm rem mag with a short barrel, delivering the exact same outcome in terms of efficiency as a 7-08, would you not choose the 7-08 in that it offers a short action, longer barrel life, less recoil, same bullet options, less powder consumption, less muzzle flash, non-belted cartridge, etc. etc.

it's really that simple. Yes,,both an 18" 300WM and a 22" 7-08 will kill the same deer equally at a reasonably normal hunting distance, but why budget for all the negatives when you don't have to..

would you put a V8 in a fiat panda, no...would you put a Smart Car engine in a ferrari, no.. it's about matching up the design and purpose to matching with the efficient spectrum that makes a particular item perform at its best.

 

[NigelM]

There's always one...

 

[User00003]

you had to didn't you! LOL

 

[User00033]

But how often do you see a short 7mm Rem Mag @PKL???

Shortened centrefires are very common here, but I honestly don't think I've ever seen a shortened magnum! Sure some dickweed will have one, but he's a dickweed, so what?!

The debate is raging simply because highly unlikely scenarios are being dragged into an otherwise perfectly reasonable proposition!

 

[Kalahari]

There is absolutely no room on here for a "perfectly reasonable proposition", how are we expected to get decently off topic with one of those?

David.

 

[Dalua]

There is absolutely no room on here for a "perfectly reasonable proposition", how are we expected to get decently off topic with one of those?

OK. How about this?

...a handy shot from a truck (off the public roads of course)...

Why 'of course'? Is it unlawful?

 

[User00033]

There is absolutely no room on here for a "perfectly reasonable proposition", how are we expected to get decently off topic with one of those?

Indeed, there seems to be a fascination with the 3SD outliers on the edges of the Bell curve, that then informs the rest of the conversation!

 

[Sharpie]

If you are going to shoot a deer from a vehicle, off the wing mirror or over the bonnet you'd have to have the engine turned off, I think it's still a law. As you obviously would anyway unless you were a dipstick or a drive-by poacher.

 

[alberta boy]

Does it matter if it's a short or a long wheelbase vehicle ? Somehow , I think it does lol . Sorry , I had too .

AB

 

[Sharpie]

Muzzle flash is inevitable whatever your barrel length, or percentage powder burn. Our smokeless powders all produce a large excess of hydrogen, that's mostly what causes it. The military are keenly interested in the phenomenon, and have researched chemical additions to minimise it.

Moderators largely solve this for us, and of course should be used on short, or any length barrels, in the field, if you want to retain your hearing. As for bullpups so short that you could even shoot your fingers off if stupid, you'd have to be mad to use one without a mod. Or good ear defenders plus good ear-plugs as well, hardly practical in the field.

Muzzle brakes on a stalking rifle ? Well I've seen one set up that way, in 7mm Rem. Mag. no less. Wouldn't want to be anywhere near it.

Lightweight mods are usually consumables, despite what might be claimed or supposedly guaranteed.

Trust me, you don't want to have to be relying on hearing aids, or living with tinnitus. Never mind considering the effect on dogs hearing, which ought to be far more sensitive than ours.

Even just stalking, with the occasional shot, never mind targets or clays by the hundred.

Youngsters may think it won't happen, that they are invincible, but if they carry on it will catch up with them, soon enough, and there's no going back.

Some light reading, from this keyboard warrior:

Muzzle flash - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Sharpie]

There's always one...

What a good idea. I wonder if I could fit one into a Jimny ?

 

[User00003]

had a moderator once, sold the rifle despite it being an almost new sako 75,, because I was so disgusted by the look of it after threading, couldn't live with it in my home.

and don't try and tell me I'm crazy, I won't be able to hear what you're saying anyway..

 

[jthyttin]

ok ok ok guys...but honestly, if you could choose between a 7mm rem mag with a short barrel, delivering the exact same outcome in terms of efficiency as a 7-08, would you not choose the 7-08 in that it offers a short action, longer barrel life, less recoil, same bullet options, less powder consumption, less muzzle flash, non-belted cartridge, etc. etc.

Yes I would choose 7-08 and chop it down. Adequate velocity for job in hand (whatever it may be).

But comparing the choices, combining data from these sources:

Reloading data tool | Vihtavuori

Vihtavuori has developed a new online search engine to make reloading data even easier to access! Our new reloading data search tool enables you to search for

www.vihtavuori.com

7mm Remington Magnum (7 Rem Mag) Barrel Length Versus Velocity

7mm Remington Magnum (7 Rem Mag) Barrel Length Versus Velocity Since its introduction in 1962, the 7mm Remington Magnum (7 Rem Mag) has developed a strong following, becoming the most popular metri…

rifleshooter.com

I think it's safe to say you can go 16" in 7mm Rem Mag (maybe shorter) to equal 24" 7-08. 8" / 20cm is huge in OAL and there are some who are willing to pay the price.

 

[User00003]

Yes I would choose 7-08 and chop it down. Adequate velocity for job in hand (whatever it may be).

But comparing the choices, combining data from these sources:

Reloading data tool | Vihtavuori

Vihtavuori has developed a new online search engine to make reloading data even easier to access! Our new reloading data search tool enables you to search for

www.vihtavuori.com

7mm Remington Magnum (7 Rem Mag) Barrel Length Versus Velocity

7mm Remington Magnum (7 Rem Mag) Barrel Length Versus Velocity Since its introduction in 1962, the 7mm Remington Magnum (7 Rem Mag) has developed a strong following, becoming the most popular metri…

rifleshooter.com

I think it's safe to say you can go 16" in 7mm Rem Mag (maybe shorter) to equal 24" 7-08. 8" / 20cm is huge in OAL and there are some who are willing to pay the price.

true but why focus on MV when there are so many other variables that make chopping an overbore cartridge just a silly idea

 

[jthyttin]

If you don't want a compact rifle please stop reading now.

Most obvious reasons would be trajectory and energy, third is wind drift. Trajectory you can usually boost choosing smaller diameter bullet (lose some MV but gain BC grain-for-grain) and energy in short distances is boosted by changing to larger diameter bullet (more MV grain-for-grain).

But if you want woth trajectory AND energy (or focus on the wind drift) then boosting the MV for the best in class bullet you've already chosen is the only alternative. Upper pressure limit is pretty much given, and if already using the best powder your only choice is to go up in cartridge size.

 

[Dalua]

true but why focus on MV when there are so many other variables that make chopping an overbore cartridge just a silly idea

Never mind chopping overbores - there are cogent arguments to the effect that they're just a silly idea altogether!
As a .270 user, I'm allowed to say that.

 

[ejg]

The two 22" barrel 270 rifles I have using factory ammo seemed to have very low speeds over a chrony, well below what was achieved with a 16" 308 in an article of the NZ Hunter. I recon even overbore cartridges can be tailored somewhat to better performance in short barrels as also in the example of the 16" 284win. As always, the question is why?
edi

 

[ChesterP]

I'm a bit of a convert to OBT nodes and the the power of Quickload. I know some people don't believe in either of them but they have both proven to work well for me.

Using these two tools you can work out barrel length, predicting pretty accurately whats required.

I have recently spec'd two 6.5x47 Lapua barrels. One a LR rifle to shoot 150 SMK's and the other a Roe/Muntjac/Fallow rifle to shoot 129 ABLR's.

Using QL you can quite easily model the cartridges. Play with different powders to find which give you 95% load density or thereabouts, play with load and COAL to give an acceptable pressure at an OBT node with the barrel length you want at 100% powder burn. You soon find out what length barrel you need to achieve your objectives.

With the 150 SMK it became obvious pretty quickly that node 6 at 2600 fps was the best allrounder. A 24" barrel allowed me to run it at around 55k psi . 22" put me over 58k psi to hit the node which I did not want to get to in order to minimise throat erosion and even at 30" I couldn't get to the next node without excessive pressure.

With the 129 ABLR I didn't want to go above 2800 fps as it causes too much carcass damage on Roe for me (from experience). The OBT node was 2780 fps and I could get there at a very reasonable 54k psi with a 22" barrel. I would have liked to have gone 20" but pressure would have climbed above 58k psi and throat erosion would have increased significantly.

Barrel length can be calculated if you know what you want to achieve.

As for profile, it's all about wall thickness at the muzzle. A #2 profile in 6mm will give you about 180 thou wall thickness. More than enough for stalking. The same in 308 give a wall thickness below 150 thou. Not an issue if you're running a 18" barrel but if it's 26" you're going to end up with something pretty whipy.

I like a bit of weight to my barrels for balance so spec'd a #4 in 22" for stalking and a Heavy Varmint in 24" for LR.

A logical process can lead you to the right barrel length and profile for what you want to achieve for your rifle. It's never going to be the same for everyone and specifying a short barrel just because you like them is unlikely to get the best result.

Agreed Nigel. The main starting point for me first and foremost are terminal ballistics requirements at specific distances on specific quarry. I then work backwards using the most appropriate bullet and calibre in my arsenal and seeing where the nodes might be for an accuracy load which also achieves the terminal ballistics needed. I have found QL to be very useful but it doesn't always predict the OBT for my barrel lengths correctly as the elephant in the room is batch to batch variations in powder. Some powders are more consistent than others. I had one batch of RS62 which was way under both predicted MVs (hence pressures at 95% fill ratio) and on subsequent batches. That isn't of course to say that QL is wrong per-se, but it does raise the point that outputs are only ever as good as the accuracy of the inputs. The other issue with QL is that it doesn't seem to model some powders well, even those which are consistent and here I believe Laurie has had some experience and written about that specifically relating to RS52 powders. Again, there's something not quite right with some of the parameters used in QL for this powder, Be interested to learn if that's true of others.

That all said, I have found for .308 and for 6.5 that 24 inches is about optimal for all my hunting needs and whilst I'd prefer a 28 inch in .308 for range work, the 24 gives me all I need at 600 yds with 150grn SMKs without going hot. For just hunting needs on deer, I could probably get away with an 18 inch barrel in .308 for the distances I shoot at but I wouldn't want the extra blast or recoil.

@dodgyknees ...yes, I can see the advantages of balance with a slightly heavier contour. Good point.

 

[Sonicdmb73]

What a good idea. I wonder if I could fit one into a Jimny ?

I’ve a sneaky feeling someone’s beaten you to it

 

[Cris]

People can have short barrels if they want, and suffer from high muzzle flash, recoil, powder consumption, short barrel life, etc, etc..with no better performance than a smaller calibre that’s actually efficient in a short calibre..it’s fine, just bloody stupid and uneducated

Well some educated people may make the choice to have a shorter barrel and hats the point really.