6.5CM V's .270Win

[User00033]

A much more useful comparison is between 143gr Eldx in CM against a standard factory 130gr soft point in .270. At the moment it’s close to impossible (if not actually impossible) to find the 145gr eldx in .270 here.

If it were straightforward to find factory eldx loads in .270, I would probably still have one. Now that I’m starting to reload, I may go back again. However, having had a bit of a look, there are almost no guns available of the spec I would want, and it would have to be a semi custom job.

Nope. Anyway if you want to compare the 143 vs 130gr, now you can!

One of the biggest problems with these infernal cartridge and calibre comparisons is the tendency for those doing the comparison to pick bullets that are in different classes. By comparing bullets in the same class you get a much better idea of the relative differences. The 143 & 145gr bullets are both in the upper tier of weights for each cartridge, and the 129 & 130gr are in the middle tier. Whether you can get the bullets or not is of no concern to me! Though I suspect as always it is a case of seek and ye shall find.

I suppose one way of answering your question slightly less objectively @North Stalker, is that of the CF rifles I own, the two that are shot the least (by far) are both .270 Winchesters. One is a very long-term “loan” off a mate who is living overseas and probably never coming back, a Weatherby in a walnut stock. The other I bought just so I could get the scope it came with because the seller didn’t know what he had and hopelessly undercharged. It’s a Thompson/Center with the 5R barrel. Remarkably for such a cheap and nasty rifle (the stock is horrible), it is very, very accurate indeed.

I feel so unattached to both of these rifles that they live down on the one farm as general hacks for use by whoever happens to be going to grab a quick deer and needs a rifle. They both wear simple Plex reticle 3-9x42 scopes. Neither is moderated and I hate shooting them for that reason. In the simplest possible terms, they both work. Emphatically.

What I guess I am saying is that I see the 6.5 Creedmoor as the perfect prone position deer sniping rifle. Low recoil, extremely accurate, fantastic ballistics, a rifle that I can (and do) literally shoot all day, and enjoy it. The .270 on the other hand is a rifle that I would be happy to carry and use as an off hand, snap shooting deer flattener in situations where I wouldn’t be anywhere near as prepared for the shot as if I am when using the Creedmoor.

So two very different situations, calling for two different rifles! My prone shooting rifles are deliberately very heavy and built for the purpose and don’t make a good carry rifles. I shoot a lightweight .308 in the same way that I would shoot the .270, and within 300m or so I see the two as basically one and the same in terms of outcome. I just prefer the .308 because it is an infinitely more flexible cartridge than the .270.

So if I were you I would keep and use both rifles according to your situation. And get some more because you know that you can never have enough.

 

[Primate]

Deer legal? Check
Ammo Available? Check
Rifles Available? Check
Deer in Season? Check

go stalking.....
the deer don't read ammo boxes
The difference in external ballistics at deer stalking ranges is largely theoretical and usually of no consequence to the average stalker.
Drop and Drift differences often require a level of shooting accuracy and wind calling accuracy that would be unusual if not impossible to demonstrate from a single cold bore shot in field conditions

Think you hit the nail on the head with the first bit re average stalking scenarios.
Not sure I'd agree with your statement re drop and drift being unusual or impossible to demonstrate in field conditions.
We shoot crows on a weekly basis at all sorts of ranges, granted we miss a few when shooting further out but the majority inside 400 yards are killed. A ride around in snow conditions shooting carrions off fence stumps and off thorn trees is great practice.
It takes around 30 seconds to ping the range, capture the direction with the kestrel, capture wind direction, dial and shoot, not that hard really, certainly not "unusual or impossible"

 

[Mungo]

Nope. Anyway if you want to compare the 143 vs 130gr, now you can!

Actually, very much yes. He was absolutely explicit in saying factory loads only.

It is easy to find 143gr eldx factory loads in CM here. It is close to impossible to find 145gr eldx factory loads in .270.

So you need to compare what is ACTUALLY available, rather than theoretically available. So while I agree the theoretical need to compare within the same class of bullet, that is just a bit of mental masturbation if you can't actually buy those bullets.

 

[Mungo]

Drop and Drift differences often require a level of shooting accuracy and wind calling accuracy that would be unusual if not impossible to demonstrate from a single cold bore shot in field conditions

Says the man who just switched bullets in his .308 because he was getting too much drift...

The value of something like 143gr in CM is the that you can worry a lot less about accurately estimating the wind for 200-300m shots.

Essentially, they do for drift what the fast cartridges (like 270) did for drop: they buy you a larger margin of error for a variable that you may struggle to estimate accurately.

 

[User00033]

Hey hey! I do love a good argument. I found three British retailers with .270 Precision Hunter in stock, in one Google search. I stopped bothering to look any more after three. Wham bam thank you. So there. Anyway... this is a pointless good argument.

But arguing with Ed about plastic tipped bullets is never pointless so please keep that up. His argument about 300m plastic tipped blah blah is cobblers, sorry Ed to be so blunt. I use high BC bullets so I can shoot animals in the spine at 200-300m, and further, and closer, and I know from cold hard experience that it is considerably more reliable with high BC bullets in variable conditions than the common or garden el cheapo softpoint. No contest, inarguable.

The best comparison I have available firsthand is the .243 ProHunter 100gr vs ELD-X 90gr.

My zero and drop tests are usually 300m and 500m. On a calm day with a very light breeze from 6 o’clock, the ProHunter will 3-shot group sub-MOA at 300m, typically 0.7-0.9, best ever was 0.62. At 500m, it tends to open a bit as it slows down and the breeze gets to it - I don’t use the ProHunter at that range but it is a handy double check for trajectory validation. Throw in a switchy breeze and it can be a bit of a lottery.

The 90gr ELD-X however is a bankable half-MOA, I’ve got that wee bullet shooting exceptionally well with a relatively mild load at 2,975fps. From a short barrel! At 300m, same outcome, and again at 500m. It’s trajectory is so much better than the old ProHunter that it’s performance is in a whole different class. As a precision option for high shoulder or neck shooting deer that need to be dropped where they stand, it’s got a full 100m+ on the ProHunter.

My longer range rabbit and hare shooting is also a good example - with the best of the .224 plastic tips I’m heaps more effective with a breeze than with el cheapo spitzers.

So the point is @North Stalker, if you want to stretch things out a bit to 450-500m as you say, use a high BC bullet. The ELD-X is a fantastic bullet that is delivering for me over and over, in both 6mm and 6.5 Creedmoor versions. Watch the latest video with the 143gr ELD-X between 400-625m, nailing goats bang-flop, and check the wind.

 

[Mungo]

Hey hey! I do love a good argument. I found three British retailers with .270 Precision Hunter in stock, in one Google search. I stopped bothering to look any more after three. Wham bam thank you. So there. Anyway... this is a pointless good argument.

Sorry - yes, of COURSE you would know exactly how easy it is to find ammo here, sitting at your keyboard in NZ...

There is a world of difference between being able to find it online and being able to actually get it. The steps:

1. The shop you found in your Google search that lists it as 'in stock' is actually telling the truth (frequently not the case).
2. This shop is within a sensible driving distance.
3. If it is not within driving distance, you have two choices:

(a) Order it from them. This is ruinously expensive, since they can't just post it to you - it has to go with a courier licensed to carry explosives, and it will more than double the cost of a box of ammo. Since you are unlikely to have an allowance for more than about 100 rounds on your ticket, you can't even make savings by buying in bulk.
(b) Go to your local dealer, and persuade them to order it. If you're lucky, and they think there's something to be gained from doing so, they will. But this will take time - weeks to months. It will often depend on what the supplier has in stock. Since the suppliers often only bring in one or two container loads a year, they may not have it, and you will have to wait. And wait.

So by and large, unless you can find something in your local dealer when you walk in off the street, there is no point lusting after it.

But please, tell me I'm wrong.

As for Ed - well, he IS my local dealer... I wouldn't want to upset him too much.

 

[Edinburgh Rifles]

Not sure I'd agree with your statement re drop and drift being unusual or impossible to demonstrate in field conditions.
We shoot crows on a weekly basis at all sorts of ranges, granted we miss a few when shooting further out but the majority inside 400 yards are killed.

Your average stalker rarely shoots past 100-150yds/m
Varmint pinging beyond that is a different kettle of fish and I agree does require

Says the man who just switched bullets in his .308 because he was getting too much drift...

At ranges beyond 250 in our recent high wind weather though..
only recently that i have needed them to do more
prior to that I was perfectly happy with the performance

But arguing with Ed about plastic tipped bullets is never pointless so please keep that up. His argument about 300m plastic tipped blah blah is cobblers, sorry Ed to be so blunt. I use high BC bullets so I can shoot animals in the spine at 200-300m, and further, and closer, and I know from cold hard experience that it is considerably more reliable with high BC bullets in variable conditions than the common or garden el cheapo softpoint. No contest, inarguable.

no argument here
back to your average stalker who shoots everything inside 100-150yds/m......
find a 300m competitive benchrest shooter and ask them what they shoot
tenner says its a 6mm 60-70gr flat base HP bullet as their preference
The Boat Tail ballistic tip element is largely irrelevant inside 300m

 

[User00033]

Thank you @Mungo for the detailed reply, I feel far more equipped for my future ammunition buying in Scotland.

 

[Mungo]

Thank you @Mungo for the detailed reply, I feel far more equipped for my future ammunition buying in Scotland.

Now you’re just sore...

 

[CarlW]

 

[User00033]

FOR THE LAST TIME YA GOBSHITE, YE CANNAE GET THEM HERE!

 

[North Stalker]

View attachment 151231

Just be thankful it’s not a .308, the shame of it. Bit of Brokeback is so much more respectful.

 

[North Stalker]

Going off what I’ve found and the relevant and detailed replies from some people not including @CarlW , I’ll be sticking with the .270
Thanks to those commented. Appreciated.

NS

 

[User00033]

Because you definitely won’t be able to find ELD-X @North Stalker, have a good look at the type of bullet being used in whatever factory ammunition is available.

For the long shots you really want to avoid a hard bullet.

Look for something that has ideally a boat tail, like the Hornady SST, Sierra GameKing and Speer BTSP. These are in the mid tier of bullet hardness.

Federal Premium with the GameKing (130 or 150gr), or the Nosler BT (130gr) would be ideal.

The harder bonded and locked bullets are great for typical close range work on thick skinned animals like large antelope, but can create problems at the impact velocities you’ll be getting at the ranges you want to shoot to, especially on soft deer.

 

[User00033]

Oh @CarlW...

 

[booradley]

I have a .270 and 6.5x55 which I believe most people would agree that ballistically is pretty much the twin of the 6.5 Creedmoor. I have been using the same .270 since I was 14 in 1973 and never found it wanting. It’s taken one elk and several Nilgai. Around ten years ago I started looking around for a cartridge with less recoil due to three shoulder operations and settled on the Swede in a CZ 550 American. I hand load 130 grain Berger Hunting VLD’s and would use 140 grain bullets but never found one the rifle liked.

There is no denying the superiority of the 6.5 caliber for shots way out there but, I don’t take those kind of shots. My limit is a max of around 300 yards which is as far as I feel comfortable with and I’m not a turret twister.

At the ranges I shoot I’d say the .270 is still superior to my 6.5x55 in killing power. Since I wanted less recoil though the Swede is where it’s at and is plenty of gun for deer(whitetail and Axis) which is what I bought it for. For hogs I use a 30-30 and for predators a .243. Should I ever do another elk hunt I’ll use my .270 or dust off my 30-06 which I’ve had for years but never hunted with. For Nilgai I still use my .270.

The older I get the more I realize how lucky I am. Most hunters even in the US don’t own their land and must drive quite often a considerable distance to hunt. And since their time to hunt is limited they pretty much need to be able and willing to take some pretty long shots, at least out west with it’s open terrain. If not they go home from their hunt empty handed. When I hunt deer and predators I walk out my back door, literally, and start hunting. For Nilgai I drive to a friends property and though it’s several hours away I can hunt there as often as I like and Nilgai can be legally hunted 365 days a year. So I can afford to pass up shots knowing I can come back the next day or the day after that or as often as I want.

just opened my back door and snapped this picture.

 

[Heym SR20]

go stalking.....
the deer don't read ammo boxes

But Ed, surely you have read the latest production to come out of Holyrood/ Westminster/ Borris’s bedroom about the new utopia we are all going to live in. Deer will able to read and will be able to read nice little signs saying “please don’t eat trees” and cos we are all going to be fluffy we wont want to eat deer, so we wont to need to have conversations about bullet drops and grains and and ......

what the f...... are we going to do instead?

 

[Dickie]

Sit and read books on how it used to be.

 

[Dunwaters]

I have a .270 and a 6.5 Swede, not a Creedmoor but close enough for some comparisons.
The 270 hits noticeably harder at both ends( I use 140gr bullets in 270 and 120 in 6.5) No problem with the recoil in 270, there's just a bit more of it and there's a very noticeably more severe reaction from the deer. I use the 6.5 primarily for hinds, where it does a great job, but for Sika stags I like a bit more oomph.
270 is legal for everything in Europe, including Elk with those lovely Sako 156 gr hammerheads and Monterias ( I've seen a 270 min on some hunts )
Downside is that it's a hunting cartridge that never caught on with the target shooting cadre ( their loss) this may change with the new Sauer and Nosler cartridges but I'm not holding my breath.
The Creedmoor is very much more in fashion and is probably second only to the 308 in terms of load availability , it's perfectly capable as a hunting or target cartridge but ballistically it does very little over the 100+ year old Swede.
If I wanted a pure hunting round, 270 all day, for mixed range and hunting use, 6.5 but I'd borrow something a bit bigger as required or just get a 308.

 

[Odders]

Sit and read Kindles on how it used to be.

Books will be banned to save the trees...