Rifle safety: a salutary tale

There's 2 aspects to safety and some of you are missing out on 1.
It not only has to be safe but I should be able to see that it's safe, my ability to visually check what you've done ( and vice versa) is an essential part of the safety process.
So bolt open or removed or a breech flag, mag out or floor plate opened and ammo dumped, count them in and count them out, if you use a slip have someone else verify its unloaded before you zip it up. I personally don't like to see a gun in a slip because I can't verify for myself that it's safe.
( shotguns too ) if you're getting into a car or on a quad, state firearm condition first and have it verified.
We're all safe but it's no harm to have someone else confirm it.


This.

Go out with a rifle, well, how many rounds are you anticipating to use on say deer ? Five, ten, fifty, five hundred ?

Need ten rounds +1 minimum in a drop magazine. for everyday use ? Must be double stack, not single, top loadable, a spare or two or three ready to slam in, deary me (pun).

Well these "Rangers" must be different folk to the rest of us, and seem to despise good issued affordable tools and ammo, that probably get no maintenance whatsoever from one year to the next.

And it seems like to tell us all about it whilst utterly ignoring practicalities and the need for purchasing practices, review, evaluation, putting contracts out to tender, building long term business relationships and supply chains, consistency, spares holding, maybe even a few people who know how to look after a gun and can even sort out simple problems.

These things, and their ammo, are just tools, at this level, just as say a jobbing tradesman with no stuff of their own can get as sniffy as they like about being issued with say a DeWalt drill. No, must be a Makita. No it's got to be better than that. OK eff off, I've ordered you something quite adequate from Screwfix, two batteries, don't forget to keep charging them, should last at least a year or more and if it doesn't, hell, they'll just replace it under warranty or give the money back.

Probably also complain about being issued with say a Mora knife.

Or not rigged out with the full set of Harkila clothing, special SNH version with extra large logos (no they didn't actually pay for this stuff, except maybe a token few £ to sort of keep it legal)
 
Seems lots of faffing about emptying Chambers etc crossing burns, climbing gates, highseats etc. Most magazines have 4/5 rounds these days, simply eject the round in the chamber when climbing, or doing anything an stick it in your pocket do what ever climb a gate, up a seat whatever and just chamber another round. Your still going to have another couple of rounds in the magazine, we're stalking deer not often a recreational stalker is liable to need a magazine full of rounds.... No point shouting at people for making a mistake but getting them to understand how the mistake was made will stick in there mind more than anything else.
with respect, its an awful lot of "faffing about" wondering if the bloke your cradling in your arms waiting for the air ambulance will bleed out before it arrives.
no personal offence, but I'm sure you can see my point.
 
Hmm Imho , I count them in and count them out so I know if I need to refill or replace after the last shot and/or remove live rounds as needed , its as easy as that ! As Mr Murphy is always just one step away from a Feck up , you would hope a lesson is now learnt but if not that mud may next time be another person ? . In the end your your own safety I don't rely on others to tell me anything is safe I find and look for my self B/A rifles I revert back to racking the bolt a few times pointing to the ground away from anything and pull the trigger up in the aim that 10 sec of thinking could result in stopping the OP's post from ever happening again, when you remember Remington said there safety/triggers were safe ? , even when alone if walking with a loaded rifle my bolt is half up so even a twig or other can't pull the trigger and my palm is under the bolt my thumb holding it in place so it can't be pushed up or down , I don't rely on mech safety catches as they do and have failed in the past .
 
Gun safety rules.

1) Guns are always loaded

2) never point at anything you dont wish to destroy.

Abide by these and you won’t go far wrong.

everything else is semantics.

And one thing I don’t like is this carrying a rifle with one up the spout all the time. By all means load the the chamber if you are about to or anticipating a shot. But a lot of stalkers put one up the spout as soon as the get out of the vehicle.

Sooner or later a safety catch will get moved by your clothing or a tree and there will be a bang. I know this because it has happened to me. Now i only chamber a round if I am about to take a shot.

And when unloading stick you finger into the chamber.
The strange thing ( purely from a safety management view ) is that no one ever has a problem with a shotgun being carried around with 2 up the spout, yet the risk is the same in both cases.
I can't be the only one who's noticed a certain cavalier attitude to safety amongst scatter gun aficionados.
Example, and I bet you we've all seen this, it's even been on the telly.
Shooter (A) misses a couple of clays and asks (B) to check his mount, shooter B stands in front of shooter A, shooter A closes the gun and throws it up aiming at B's eye, no one else even gives a worried blink. Just to make things even more unreal this lovely scene can be observed just about anywhere between the car park, club house or firing line.
It's frickin nuts! Try that on a rifle or pistol range and you'll ,quite rightly, be removed and probably sent away for re indoctrination besides
I personally have no issue with carrying any firearm locked and loaded and I've no problem with being pulled up if I do something unsafe either, no one is perfect, live and learn. But getting shot stone dead will seriously cut into your available shooting time so I'm a bit intolerant of sloppy practice. If you injure me I'm going to sue your ass off, if you kill me my Mrs will sue your ass off and I'll come back to haunt you, so take care.
 
What happened to sticking ypur little finger into the beech after unloading the rifle. Well I was always taught thatanyway.

David.

Do it every time. But either my rifles have shrunk, or my little fingers have got fatter, because it isn't much use to me nowadays in anything under .30.

There is of course the "I counted them all out, and I counted them all in" approach. Some younger people may not get the Falklands reference.

As in, well I went out with a stupid amount of ammo, lets say ten rounds, in a wallet. Then I tested zero (imperfectly) that's 3 rounds gone, then I shot one deer. But I wasn't quite sure so I shot it again. Still have 5 rounds left. That's enough for five more deer. Now that would be ridiculous for me, but maybe just an everyday event for some "Rangers".

I can still count to ten. And even remember every time that I ever pull the trigger against quarry. Not so much clays and rifle target shooting.
 
with respect, its an awful lot of "faffing about" wondering if the bloke your cradling in your arms waiting for the air ambulance will bleed out before it arrives.
no personal offence, but I'm sure you can see my point.
Of course I do that's why I was trying to say just empty the chamber, trying to push rounds back into the magazine just seems silly to me,to save literally seconds on reloading the chamber.
 
Do it every time. But either my rifles have shrunk, or my little fingers have got fatter, because it isn't much use to me nowadays in anything under .30.

There is of course the "I counted them all out, and I counted them all in" approach. Some younger people may not get the Falklands reference.

As in, well I went out with a stupid amount of ammo, lets say ten rounds, in a wallet. Then I tested zero (imperfectly) that's 3 rounds gone, then I shot one deer. But I wasn't quite sure so I shot it again. Still have 5 rounds left. That's enough for five more deer. Now that would be ridiculous for me, but maybe just an everyday event for some "Rangers".

I can still count to ten. And even remember every time that I ever pull the trigger against quarry. Not so much clays and rifle target shooting.

i take my ammo in a wallet. Every loop is full when I go out. Every loop should be full when i go home - even if these are empty cases.

Cold, tiredness, complacency and being distracted by others are all major factors in most accidents.

And most accidents will happen with somebody who is experienced, with an “unloaded” tool (ie i thought it was safe, not dangerous ), and frequently part of a group with so called experts present. And this applies in all walks of life.
 
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In dusk conditions I use the little finger into the chamber trick to feel the chamber edge then you know it is empty. Had one nd when I first started stalking in NM USA totally alone in the woods but I had been smallbore shooting for 20 years before so I was muzzle aware and the round went into the ground 4 feet ahead of me, that upped my game and now I do everything the same each time "like pants down before ejecting anything" that we all do automatically when booze is not involved.

An ND shouldn’t damage anything more than pride, as rifles (Loaded or not) should never be pointed at anything where it’s not safe.
Staggering to see 3 or 4 stalkers who’ve been picked up from different parts of the estate, get out of the pick up vehicle and make their way towards their own vehicle to put their firearms away with rifles carried in one hand pointing every which way.
Ken.
 
The strange thing ( purely from a safety management view ) is that no one ever has a problem with a shotgun being carried around with 2 up the spout, yet the risk is the same in both cases.
I can't be the only one who's noticed a certain cavalier attitude to safety amongst scatter gun aficionados.
Example, and I bet you we've all seen this, it's even been on the telly.
Shooter (A) misses a couple of clays and asks (B) to check his mount, shooter B stands in front of shooter A, shooter A closes the gun and throws it up aiming at B's eye, no one else even gives a worried blink. Just to make things even more unreal this lovely scene can be observed just about anywhere between the car park, club house or firing line.
It's frickin nuts! Try that on a rifle or pistol range and you'll ,quite rightly, be removed and probably sent away for re indoctrination besides
I personally have no issue with carrying any firearm locked and loaded and I've no problem with being pulled up if I do something unsafe either, no one is perfect, live and learn. But getting shot stone dead will seriously cut into your available shooting time so I'm a bit intolerant of sloppy practice. If you injure me I'm going to sue your ass off, if you kill me my Mrs will sue your ass off and I'll come back to haunt you, so take care.

The fundamental difference being that when a shotgun is carried loaded it is in your hands and under full control all the time. And you are carrying it loaded because you are expecting and imminent shot. If it's tucked under your arm you break it.

Where I see rifles being carried locked and loaded is on a shoulder on a sling. And too frequently, thanks to being muzzle heavy because of a moderator, the muzzle falls back to point at everybody who is walking behind.

Personally for ground where you are constantly going over fences etc, I like my combination gun. It is easy to load and unload - just like a shotgun. And easy to load silently. Yes if I am sitting and waiting, or quietly walking along expecting a shot, then it is loaded but it will be in my hand. Ditto with a bolt action. And with a bolt action you can load it quickly and quietly enough, that certainly with Roe it gives you more than enough time take a careful shot.
 
When i finished shooting, Drop Magazine out, bolt open (Sauer in middle position, Tikka with safety off barrel always both pointing to the ground) empty chamber , BOLT REMOVE rifle barrel checked by naked eye whether i can see through, BOLT PUT INTO A BOLT HOLDER, rifle in slip, bolt in bolt holder and magazine with all rounds in it (if one was in the chamber ejected) both sit in the little compartment of my rifle sling. simple safe routine. AND YOU NEVER REMOVE A RIFLE FROM THE SLIP ANYWAY WITH YOUR FINGER ON THE TRIGGER ... if that what has happened.
 
The “T3: why do folk like them?” thread has been interesting, in that one of the strands has become about whether that particular design is “safe enough”, given the particularly features of the safety catch (e.g. it has to be moved to “Off” to open the bolt). More broadly, though, part of the debate appears to be about how “difficult” (or how much of a “faff”) it might be to make a/the rifle safe, for example when getting into or out of a vehicle, getting into a high seat, or crossing a fence etc.

My personal concern is that some of the issues raised in the thread point to underlying poor safety with a rifle, which is arguably a rather broader and more significant issue for all of us as participants in our various branches of the sport.

I was reminded of this very unpleasantly the weekend before last, when on a driven boar shoot in France. We were dropped off along the drives by vehicle, walked in to our firings pulpits (“miradors”, as they are called; 50-100m apart), and each started to sort ourselves out. A few minutes later, I heard a shot. I thought no more about it: given the possibility of boar breaking out before the drive got under way, we had been given to permission to fire when in position.

But at the end of the day I heard that one of the guns had had a negligent discharge, and promptly been escorted off the estate and sent home; I doubt he will shoot there again.

On talking later to his neighbours and a close friend, I understand that what happened was:
- At the end of the previous drive he had unloaded (or, at least, thought he had; see below), removed the magazine, and put the rifle in the slip.
- On taking his post for the next drive, he removed the rifle from the slip and, whilst doing so, it went off, the bullet hitting the ground less than 2ft in from of his feet.

I do not know the precise make of bolt-action rifle (other than it was not a Blaser), but would suggest that this safety failure very likely involved some/all of the following:
- Not pulling the bolt fully to the rear, to extract the round from the breach. This all too often occurs because we worry about losing the “very expensive round” (sic) if we pull the bolt back hard enough to cause it to eject fully. So the temptation is to pull the bolt back just enough to enable us either to catch the round, or to push it back into the magazine again.
- Pushing the bolt forward without physically checking that the round was not still engaged on the bolt, and hence re-chambering the round. Then removing the magazine, and thinking that the rifle is now unloaded.
- It is clearly possible that he just removed the magazine and forgot to cycle the bolt. Same effect.
- Not firing off the action whilst the rifle is under control and pointed to a safe backstop. Not only would this have eliminated the risk of the round still being chambered, but it would also have un-set any set trigger he might have had.
- Touching the trigger, if set, (or even, heaven forbid, pulling it directly) as he removed the rifle from the slip at the start of the next drive.

My personal view is that the only really safe way to unload a bolt-action rifle is:
- Open the bolt firmly and fully. Check the round extracts and ejects fully.
- If the magazine is detachable, leave the bolt fully open, remove the magazine, and then cycle the bolt several times.
- Check both the breech and magazine well are clear.
- Close the bolt, fire off the action into a safe backstop.
BUT, if the rifle has a floor plate magazine, you need to empty this, either by cycling the action, or opening the floor plate. Then check breech and magazine are empty, and fire off the action.

Note that none of this involves the use of the safety to in any way make the process easier or safer: you have to have the rifle fully in your control the whole time, and understand why you are making each movement.

But please do not kid yourself that, if you push the ejected round back down into the magazine and then close the bolt, even supposedly on an empty chamber, your rifle is unloaded. It just has not been made ready yet. Or, at least, you don’t believe that to be the case…..

The vast majority of bolt action rifles made for civilian use in the last century or so have mechanisms derived from military actions. These have generally been proven by being produced in vast quantities, and then used on operations at an intensity that few, if any, of us can comprehend. A consistent lesson from all this has been that safety catches, however well or badly designed, are never a substitute for good personal drills and safety standards. Literally millions of young (and often tired and frightened) soldiers have mastered the “faff” of these basic handling skills; if we cannot, should we be trusted with a rifle to use at all?

PS:
What would you say to the guy whose rifle went off accidentally? How would you treat him, and what would you want before he was shooting next to you again? Genuinely interested to know.

Firstly, I do not ever have a loaded rifle in a vehicle
Secondly, when I take the safety off to remove a live round, the rifle is pointing in a safe direction. It seems crazy to me to have to take the safety off to cycle a bolt to remove a round, stupid design in my opinion
The faffing about, is the act of having to drop the mag to put the ejected live round into it, be able to top load removes this unnecessary act.

If you are going use me as an example please quote what I say correctly
 
Firstly, I do not ever have a loaded rifle in a vehicle
Secondly, when I take the safety off to remove a live round, the rifle is pointing in a safe direction. It seems crazy to me to have to take the safety off to cycle a bolt to remove a round, stupid design in my opinion
The faffing about, is the act of having to drop the mag to put the ejected live round into it, be able to top load removes this unnecessary act.

If you are going use me as an example please quote what I say correctly
We need to draw up a spec of what is considered design faults and design/spec requirements
 
i take my ammo in a wallet. Every loop is full when I go out. Every loop should be full when i go home - even if these are empty cases.

In an ideal world so would I. But in reality, say shooting from a high seat, or elsewhere, sometimes you do lose fired cases. It's a bummer if you reload. But if you just use factory stuff it's no big deal. And really you should be concentrating on what you are shooting at, not getting distracted about picking up brass, to the possible detriment of your quarry.

Target shooting, rather different, If I don't return with exactly the same number of rounds, empty or complete, it really annoys me. And seeing an empty space in say an MTM 50 round box makes it very obvious.

But surely a little basic mental discipline and remembering how to count, might just remind you that say you started off with, I don't know, 5 or 10, either in magazines or a wallet. Then shot X number, either retaining empty cases or not. Then at the end of shooting obviously having checked clear and ideally having a second party confirmed that, unload magazine(s) and count again.

Because, of course, a loaded magazine counts as a loaded rifle I think, so all magazines should be unloaded before returning from your permission. Not just treated as a convenient way of carrying your ammo, never mind loading them up in advance.
 
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