Copper ammo and barrel twist rates- is a fast twist rate more futureproof?

[billy_boyle_2010]

Hi guys

Im about to buy a 223 mainly as a fox gun- which should fill the gap between my HMR and 308.

However- reading about the move towards copper bullets- it seems that copper bullets may benefit from a faster twist rate. Is this correct? From what I gather-

Copper less dense than lead

Copper bullet of the same weight as a lead bullet will therefore be longer

Longer bullets generally require a fast twist rate to stabilise

Thus lighter bullets already on the legal limit for certain species (say roe in Scotland)- will require a fast twist rate to remain legal.

Does this have implications for the slower twist rate guns ? Perhaps it doesn't matter as much for fox.

Finally are there any disadvantage to a fast twist rate ? Will a 223 fast twist struggle to stabilise a lighter bullet- say 50 gr?

Any advice would be great thanks.

 

[Claret_Dabbler]

There’s no down side to a 1-8” twist 223.

 

[Yorric]

Only Downside is that if you drive some extra thin jacketed Varmint bullets too fast they can sometimes explode in flight, often between 150 & 250 yards from the muzzle.,,,, too much centrifugal force!
I was given a big box of sp bullets, don't know what they are, but they do this at above 3200ft/sec. I suspect they are meant for a Hornet.
A one in eight twist barrel will stabilise 75 grain plastic tipped bullets all day. Also the Barnes 62 grain TTSX box has a label on it saying "Recommended twist 1:8" or faster"
Ian

 

[billy_boyle_2010]

Hmmm ok thanks guys- sounds like it's worth holding out for a faster twist barrel.

Its an interesting point though. Could slower twist 223s be less desirable when copper bullets become law ?

 

[Kalahari]

CZ 527 comes with 1 in 9 twist.

David.

 

[Claret_Dabbler]

Only Downside is that if you drive some extra thin jacketed Varmint bullets too fast they can sometimes explode in flight, often between 150 & 250 yards from the muzzle.,,,, too much centrifugal force!
I was given a big box of sp bullets, don't know what they are, but they do this at above 3200ft/sec. I suspect they are meant for a Hornet.
A one in eight twist barrel will stabilise 75 grain plastic tipped bullets all day. Also the Barnes 62 grain TTSX box has a label on it saying "Recommended twist 1:8" or faster"
Ian

That 62gr TTSX should be great for Roe.

 

[takbok]

@billy_boyle_2010 the standard 1:12 twist should handle the 50gr Barnes and Fox bullets. If you want to shoot the better BC 55 & 62gr bullets then a 1:8 or 1:9 twist is beneficial. I've gone for a 1:9 twist so that I can try the 55gr Barnes TTSX .

 

[User00040]

Nothing wrong with the flat base bullets.

In theory flat base are more consistent/accurate without external factors (like wind) influencing bullet flight.

Go to a benchrest competition (maybe not at the moment) and look at the bullets they use.

Then compare to 1000 yard/meter/ F class.

Decide which style will be closer to your shooting and pick accordingly.

In theory copper bullets will have a higher BC due to their longer length per grain, but this advantage is not 'free' as their lower sectional density (compared to lead) reigns it in.

Why the hell you would want to use a copper bullet on vermin which is more likely to penetrate/ricochet/fail to expand compared to the copper cup and lead core that has worked for more than 200 years is beyond me.

My interest in the 50 grain Barnes TTSX comes from the fact that guys in NZ are loading this bullet and dropping big reds with these (albeit bush hunting at shorter range).

Hoping to do an 'NZ Safari' once restrictions are over and my .223 is fixed! (both may take a while haha)

 

[Edinburgh Rifles]

we have a factory 50gr load for .222 and .22-250 1:14" twists

flat base
conical point

 

[alberta boy]

Nothing wrong with the flat base bullets.

In theory flat base are more consistent/accurate without external factors (like wind) influencing bullet flight.

Go to a benchrest competition (maybe not at the moment) and look at the bullets they use.

Then compare to 1000 yard/meter/ F class.

Decide which style will be closer to your shooting and pick accordingly.

In theory copper bullets will have a higher BC due to their longer length per grain, but this advantage is not 'free' as their lower sectional density (compared to lead) reigns it in.

Why the hell you would want to use a copper bullet on vermin which is more likely to penetrate/ricochet/fail to expand compared to the copper cup and lead core that has worked for more than 200 years is beyond me.

My interest in the 50 grain Barnes TTSX comes from the fact that guys in NZ are loading this bullet and dropping big reds with these (albeit bush hunting at shorter range).

Hoping to do an 'NZ Safari' once restrictions are over and my .223 is fixed! (both may take a while haha)

The 50 gr Barnes TTSX is popular in British Colombia for hunting deer , it's legal to hunt with 223's in BC , but not in Alberta ........ don't ask , long story . Back on point , I know a few guys that live on Vancouver Island who swear by them for Black Tails . Apparently a very reliable combination , I wish we could use them on this side of the Rockies .

AB

 

[NP435]

The 50 gr Barnes TTSX is popular in British Colombia for hunting deer , it's legal to hunt with 223's in BC , but not in Alberta ........ don't ask , long story . Back on point , I know a few guys that live on Vancouver Island who swear by them for Black Tails . Apparently a very reliable combination , I wish we could use them on this side of the Rockies .

AB

Here in my state 62 grn is the min weight required and pronghorn and deer only not elk. Articles have been published with a 100 grn tsx 25 cal in some wildcat cartridge that went through both shoulders of a bull bison. Wish I had that article now to help my memory.

 

[alberta boy]

Here in my state 62 grn is the min weight required and pronghorn and deer only not elk. Articles have been published with a 100 grn tsx 25 cal in some wildcat cartridge that went through both shoulders of a bull bison. Wish I had that article now to help my memory.

Here we can't use anything smaller than .23 caliber ( and people have built rifles using .23 cal wildcats ) , no ME , MV or bullet weight restrictions . It's legal to use 243W and 6mmRem on Moose and other large game . I don't , but know a few who do with good results .

AB

 

[icedog]

The 250 Savage (aka 250-3000), when originally introduced was considered, because of its previously unheard of velocity of 3000 fps, to be somewhat of a miracle cartridge. Some years ago, a member on another forum posted a number of photos of large grizzly bears apparently downed by the 250 Savage with its original 87g(?) bullet. Yikes!
My 1914/1915 production model 1899 in 250 is still a great shooter, but because of its 1/14 twist, will not stabilize bullets longer than most 90g projectiles. In fact, I think both Nosler and Barnes indicate that their 100g bullets cannot be stabilized in the older 250s.

 

[alberta boy]

The 250 Savage (aka 250-3000), when originally introduced was considered, because of its previously unheard of velocity of 3000 fps, to be somewhat of a miracle cartridge. Some years ago, a member on another forum posted a number of photos of large grizzly bears apparently downed by the 250 Savage with its original 87g(?) bullet. Yikes!
My 1914/1915 production model 1899 in 250 is still a great shooter, but because of its 1/14 twist, will not stabilize bullets longer than most 90g projectiles. In fact, I think both Nosler and Barnes indicate that their 100g bullets cannot be stabilized in the older 250s.

I remember seeing photos from the early twentieth century of a hunter posing with a few Bengal Tigers he'd taken with a Savage 99 chambered in either a 22 High Power or a 250/3000 . A braver man than me .

AB