stop go decision needed; 20 Moa based good or bad for hunting.

New Avon Arms
doric_prince

doric_prince

Well-Known Member
advice needed please ;

for reasons that are trying to be resolved as I type- today I’ve come away from a new scope and mount purchase with 34mm rings, which I understood were std (0 moa)- upon going to set up at home I notice 20 moa stamped on the side of both rings.

. I’m being told by seller that new Mauser m12 rifles are being spec’d with 20 moa bases with no problems. But I also read of info on net is that such a moa can effect flat shooting rifles in being able to dial down to 100m zero, which is what’s alarming Me.

20 MOA Explained

Questions;
1)will these be fine for 70- 350m range hunting?

2) Or will there be any issues, runing out of / not sufficient spare adjustments, when dialling down to 100m?

3) my scope has bdc will this effect it’s use at all?

set up;
mount is tier (rebranded as blaser) one on blaser qd base
rifle is r93 7mm rem mag,
scope is s&b 4-16 x56 t96 polar sfp bdc.

timing pressure;
there is a timing dependancy. If I accepts the mounts I have I can use the scope for the trip I have on Sunday 1 weeks hinds stalking (reasons I bought it today!) if I return them for 0 moa- It will likely be the best part of a year till the scope gets used= A lot of investment now for no return/ use till later.

not an ideal situation, but I am where I am.

grateful for help.
 
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I don't see a problem. The rifle I was stalking with yesterday has a 20 MOA rail. No roe deer have complained about this yet. I wouldn't normally use a 20 MOA rail, but this rifle is primarily a target rifle and I have shot it out to 1050 yards.
Regards
JCS
 
It is not ideal at all for your flat shooting 7mm Rem Mag. You should be using 0 MOA. Maybe your 'scope has enough adjustment to overcome the unwanted 20 MOA tilt, but even if it can it's not ideal it will be operating way off its optical centre, which may also limit the travel of your windage adjustment as well. Reticles can't be moved about in a neat square box, if you are nearing the limit of say vertical adjustment, so will you be reducing the range of lateral adjustments.

E.g. simple factory ammo data, 7mm Remington Magnum ~ 150 Grain ~ Trajectory Chart - Sierra Bullets

RANGE (YARDS) VELOCITY (FT/SEC) ENERGY (FT/LBS) BULLET PATH (INCHES) BULLET PATH (1 MOA) WIND DRIFT (INCHES) WIND DRIFT (1 MOA) TIME OF FLIGHT (SECONDS)
0 3000.0 2997.1 -1.5 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0000
100 2825.1 2657.7 1.43 1.4 0.54 0.5 0.1031
200 2656.9 2350.8 0.0 0.0 2.21 1.1 0.2126
300 2494.9 2072.9 -6.36 -2.0 5.12 1.6 0.3291
400 2338.6 1821.2 -18.31 -4.4 9.38 2.2 0.4533
500 2187.1 1593.0 -36.63 -7.0 15.12 2.9 0.5859

I.e. you only need -7 MOA correction to get you out to 500 yards. Why on earth would you want to start off with -20 then have to try to wind almost all that back out again on the 'scope adjustment., makes no sense, actually very stupid.

20 MOA rails are useful for e.g. target shooters pushing .308s to 900 metres, or even .22LR to over 100 metres.

And a more fundamental point, you seem to be in an almighty hurry to get set up for a weeks trip starting on Sunday, with a new 'scope and mounts not even fitted yet. This is not the way to approach things. Expecting everything to just screw together, work first time, zero in a few shots, no familiarity with the new 'scope nor how e.g. the BDC turret might match your rifle and ammo, and so on, seems like a recipe for poor performance and frustration.

I'd suggest a step back, do more research about whether a 20 MOA mounting setup can be anything anything but a hindrance when using a 7mm RemMag for stalking, and meanwhile take your trip using something tried, tested and familiar to you.
 
For once (?!) I actually agree with @Sharpie

Despite what the specs might say, you could be stuck with insufficient elevation travel for a 100m zero.

If the dealer sold them to you as being 0MOA incline mounts and they were actually 20MOA incline, I'd take them back immediately and get the whole purchase (scope included) refunded, as what else have they not told you? Is the scope really 'new' or possibly ex-demo? If it's the latter you won't get the full warranty if things go wrong...
 

Riflescopes - Hunting - 4-16x56 Polar T96

www.schmidtundbender.de www.schmidtundbender.de

Schmidt info for this scope says 25 MOA at 100m so you'll probably be alright, but as others have said it's not ideal. Easiest way is to get out tomorrow, boresight and zero it (if you can!). If it works, great, pressure is off for your trip. If not, then oh well you're no worse off than you were when walking out the shop with 20 MOA rings

Caber raises a good point about what else they may not have told you
 
JMikeyH said:

Riflescopes - Hunting - 4-16x56 Polar T96

www.schmidtundbender.de www.schmidtundbender.de

Schmidt info for this scope says 25 MOA at 100m so you'll probably be alright, but as others have said it's not ideal. Easiest way is to get out tomorrow, boresight and zero it (if you can!). If it works, great, pressure is off for your trip. If not, then oh well you're no worse off than you were when walking out the shop with 20 MOA rings

Caber raises a good point about what else they may not have told you
Click to expand...
No they don't. Look at their data that I posted. With BDC turrets on the 4-16 it has a total vertical adjustment range of 100cm at 100m, i.e. 35 MOA. Of which half might be usable, i.e. +/- 17 MOA. As I said.

There is every chance that it won't be possible to zero it at all, if starting from a 20 MOA base. I wouldn't even bother trying, the setup is wrong.
 
Sharpie said:
No they don't. Look at their data that I posted. With BDC turrets on the 4-16 it has a total vertical adjustment range of 100cm at 100m, i.e. 35 MOA. Of which half might be usable, i.e. +/- 17 MOA. As I said.

There is every chance that it won't be possible to zero it at all, if starting from a 20 MOA base. I wouldn't even bother trying, the setup is wrong.
Click to expand...
Hi, I very clearly see 25 MOA/100m in elevation adjustment in the technical page I linked, I agree it is contrary to what you posted but this is straight from the horses mouth

I've spent enough time on SD to see a ****ing contest coming up. Ta ra...
 
And to think the poor Op started out with only the concern of justifying a circa £2k outlay on a stalking rifle scope!

Oh how complicated life has become for the modern rifleman.

K
 
JMikeyH said:
Hi, I very clearly see 25 MOA/100m in elevation adjustment in the technical page I linked, I agree it is contrary to what you posted but this is straight from the horses mouth

I've spent enough time on SD to see a ****ing contest coming up. Ta ra...
Click to expand...
I think it is simple to understand.. With Posicon turrets there is a total vertical range of 150cm at 100m. I.e. 52 MOA. Of which half is usable for drops, hence the 25MOA spec for those turrets.

With BDC turrets there is a smaller total range of 100cm at 100m. 35 MOA total, resulting in 17 MOA for drops. But the useful MOA adjustment is not given.

At least that is my interpretation.
 
Thanks to those of you who answered my questions, and to those of you who have gone a little off piste- I note your comments.

tbh, my basic understanding of geometry meant my gut instinct was this setup isn’t what should be used for my needs and would require a lot off backpedaling to get to where it should have been to begin with.

with that in mind, and the helpful info you havbe provided- I’ll be returning the 20 moa For a 0.

Not that I felt it was required to explain the reasons behind my recent acquisition or haste in executing it (it gets a little boring to burden you all with my inner turmoils in life) but fwiw I was alway taking my established rifle with me, zeroed and well practice with, as my main gun. This coming trip was an op to get some target practice in on my new rig and set the new scope before moving it on to live targets If all went well. Sorry perhaps I should have explained that.

that said, I have used plenty of estate rifles and scopes that I’m unfamiliar with and got on just fine, as do lots of guests.

this post was one of technical query, which there has been some debate around, however enough information has been provided/ difference of position, to make me doubtful it’s a risk worth taking- so thank you all for bring me round on that Point.

warmest regards, E.
 
doric_prince said:
advice needed please ;

for reasons that are trying to be resolved as I type- today I’ve come away from a new scope and mount purchase with 34mm rings, which I understood were std (0 moa)- upon going to set up at home I notice 20 moa stamped on the side of both rings.

. I’m being told by seller that new Mauser m12 rifles are being spec’d with 20 moa bases with no problems. But I also read of info on net is that such a moa can effect flat shooting rifles in being able to dial down to 100m zero, which is what’s alarming Me.

20 MOA Explained

Questions;
1)will these be fine for 70- 350m range hunting?

2) Or will there be any issues, runing out of / not sufficient spare adjustments, when dialling down to 100m?

3) my scope has bdc will this effect it’s use at all?

set up;
mount is tier (rebranded as blaser) one on blaser qd base
rifle is r93 7mm rem mag,
scope is s&b 4-16 x56 t96 polar sfp bdc.

timing pressure;
there is a timing dependancy. If I accepts the mounts I have I can use the scope for the trip I have on Sunday 1 weeks hinds stalking (reasons I bought it today!) if I return them for 0 moa- It will likely be the best part of a year till the scope gets used= A lot of investment now for no return/ use till later.

not an ideal situation, but I am where I am.

grateful for help.
Click to expand...
In the interest of your time pressure I'd be inclined to zero at 200yards or your rifles MPBR to remedy the problem for your trip. Go away, have a good time and then deal with the mount on your return.
For the avoidance of doubt, many people use the MPBR zero method, myself included.
--Edit--
Given the above you've made the right choice, use your main rifle, I wasn't aware this was a new/spare setup.
 
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PerdixUK said:
In the interest of your time pressure I'd be inclined to zero at 200yards or your rifles MPBR to remedy the problem for your trip. Go away, have a good time and then deal with the mount on your return.
For the avoidance of doubt, many people use the MPBR zero method, myself included.
--Edit--
Given the above you've made the right choice, use your main rifle, I wasn't aware this was a new/spare setup.
Click to expand...
Thanks , main rifle is same as 7mm rem mag but in .243 which I can get away with using this year on red venison but next year our gillie will have to use non toxic only on carcasses for the game dealer- hence the move to 7mm and a new mount and scope (keeping the .243 for roe & fox).

Was keen to break in the new rig this season and get some practise in before fully adopted next year. My problem is at home the range near me does not allow magnum, so limited ops to zero / practise- hence my strong desire to utilise the range on our door step when stalking up north on this trip.
 
PerdixUK said:
In the interest of your time pressure I'd be inclined to zero at 200yards or your rifles MPBR to remedy the problem for your trip. Go away, have a good time and then deal with the mount on your return.
Click to expand...
Sadly I think that that might prove difficult if not impossible, using the 20 MOA rings.

Using the Sierra ballistics for the 7mm Rem Mag, that I posted earlier, where they are using a 1.5" scope height (i.e. centre of scope above centre of bore) and their 150 grain bullet at 3000 FPS, , they are suggesting that using a perfectly level 'scope, it would be shooting 1.5" low at the muzzle (obviously), 1.43" high at 100 yards (+1.4 MOA), dead on at 200 yards (0 MOA), 6.36" low at 300 yards (-2.0 MOA), 18.31" low at 400 yards (-4.4 MOA), 36.3" low at 500 yards (-7.0 MOA)

Since the 'scope appears to have +/- 17 MOA adjustment with BDC turrets, by fitting it on a -20 MOA mount, it might have at best between -3 MOA and - 37 MOA of usefulness. Which might mean that the closest zero would be out at something like 350 yards, with the vertical adjustment on its end stop.

These are of course just theoretical examples, taking no account of the need for other adjustment to actually zero the scope in the real world, where mounts, barrel, and the 'scope itself are not utterly perfectly made, but I think that the general idea is pretty obvious. Putting a 20 MOA mount onto a 7mm Rem Mag, with a stalking scope (not some whizzo ultra long range target thing with extreme vertical adjustment range) and wanting to use it over all stalking distances, or beyond, is not going to go well.

Mount it at 0 MOA, and it should be perfect.

doric_prince, such a nuisance and so frustrating that you were not given the rings that you ordered. But you might still be able to retrieve something by breaking the rifle in, practice, accuracy testing etc., but by using a twin target, i.e. aiming point quite a few MOA higher than the target itself. That might actually be quite workable at shorter distances, e.g. 100 yards. Providing you could swap the otherwise useless 20 MOA rings for the correct ones, on your return. Or maybe even get replacements couriered to you whilst you are away. That way you might retrieve something from your supplier's error, although you wouldn't get to "blood" your rifle.
 
Sharpie said:
Sadly I think that that might prove difficult if not impossible, using the 20 MOA rings.

Using the Sierra ballistics for the 7mm Rem Mag, that I posted earlier, where they are using a 1.5" scope height (i.e. centre of scope above centre of bore) and their 150 grain bullet at 3000 FPS, , they are suggesting that using a perfectly level 'scope, it would be shooting 1.5" low at the muzzle (obviously), 1.43" high at 100 yards (+1.4 MOA), dead on at 200 yards (0 MOA), 6.36" low at 300 yards (-2.0 MOA), 18.31" low at 400 yards (-4.4 MOA), 36.3" low at 500 yards (-7.0 MOA)

Since the 'scope appears to have +/- 17 MOA adjustment with BDC turrets, by fitting it on a -20 MOA mount, it might have at best between -3 MOA and - 37 MOA of usefulness. Which might mean that the closest zero would be out at something like 350 yards, with the vertical adjustment on its end stop.

These are of course just theoretical examples, taking no account of the need for other adjustment to actually zero the scope in the real world, where mounts, barrel, and the 'scope itself are not utterly perfectly made, but I think that the general idea is pretty obvious. Putting a 20 MOA mount onto a 7mm Rem Mag, with a stalking scope (not some whizzo ultra long range target thing with extreme vertical adjustment range) and wanting to use it over all stalking distances, or beyond, is not going to go well.

Mount it at 0 MOA, and it should be perfect.

doric_prince, such a nuisance and so frustrating that you were not given the rings that you ordered. But you might still be able to retrieve something by breaking the rifle in, practice, accuracy testing etc., but by using a twin target, i.e. aiming point quite a few MOA higher than the target itself. That might actually be quite workable at shorter distances, e.g. 100 yards. Providing you could swap the otherwise useless 20 MOA rings for the correct ones, on your return. Or maybe even get replacements couriered to you whilst you are away. That way you might retrieve something from your supplier's error, although you wouldn't get to "blood" your rifle.
Click to expand...
Thanks, im tending to agree with you thesis/ logic on the figures now.

I’m in contact with the seller. He’s doing his best to get another set shipped up today to his shop. I don’t think he would be happy for me to try out the 20 moa and then return them for 0 ones as they will be marked. He’s certainly not suggested that yet!

part of this is my fault for trying to cram in gear the week before I leave, other dependencies were influencing the decision matrix that lead me down this path, which impacted timing.

however, when I called on Wednesday to enquiry if scope and mounts were immediately available I was told yes no problem- so frustrating to find this out upon collecting.( to be fair to him the box was silent on what moa the rings had).
 
I do have the option of taking off the 8x56 klassic and 30mm mounts I have set on my main .243 rig and resetting them on to my 7mm rem mag barrel, to be able to test out the gun. But that completely makes redundant (until next year) yesterdays optic purchase, which for me (despite what others may incorrectly see as bourgeoisie behaviour) is actually a significant chunk of change (to me at least!) for it to just sit in the cabinet watching 1 year of warranty disappear!

it’s also a 90 mile round trip for me to go back to this shop!
 
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