My diary of my FAC application 😵‍💫

[Jeff8861]

I'm sorry but that is not entirely true.
The police could tell government that moderators no longer need to be on ticket. They could also implement online payments and form filling, some have started to others have not. They have wasted millions on failed systems over the years, just look through some of the sporting press if you want the details.
I have had enough arguments with my force over things that were not Home Office Guidance. So telling me I'm wrong and it's all the Governments fault is rubbish. They could remove much of the workload by going Digital taking out the physical workload of putting all the details in manually.
We could have an electronic system for transfers etc as opposed to email and manual entry. Have an Account sign in enter details, far quicker for them to review rather than enter everything in.
You can do virtually ever other kind of transaction online, so what is the holdup?

You can pay online.
You can fill in the form digitally however not all forces.
Removing moderators from licensing isn't going to make applications faster. The police can't tell the government on what policy and procedure should be adopted.

Licensing do more than just grants.

Safeguarding of cert holders and thier immediate family members.
Spontaneous revocations.
Voluntary surrenders.
Visitor permits.
Rfd applications
Rfd visits and management.
Land checks
Prosecutions, File building, evidence gathering, court appearances appeal process.
Wellbeing and management of cert holders with illness/terminal.
Explosive visits and management.
Section 5 admistration
Training
Seizures and storage.
Vetting and security.
Range classification
Rifle clubs shooting clubs.
Certain medical/vets animal park facilties.
All the above are day in day out workload of licensing departments. So it's not all about grants renewals and variations. The average across the country is around 16 months. A number of factors are involved but that's what it is.

 

[Druid]

Licensing do more than just grants.

Safeguarding of cert holders and thier immediate family members.
Spontaneous revocations.
Voluntary surrenders.
Visitor permits.
Rfd applications
Rfd visits and management.
Land checks
Prosecutions, File building, evidence gathering, court appearances appeal process.
Wellbeing and management of cert holders with illness/terminal.
Explosive visits and management.
Section 5 admistration
Training
Seizures and storage.
Vetting and security.
Range classification
Rifle clubs shooting clubs.
Certain medical/vets animal park facilties.
All the above are day in day out workload of licensing departments. So it's not all about grants renewals and variations. The average across the country is around 16 months. A number of factors are involved but that's what it is.

Then it should be resolved accordingly. Lack of budget and staff as regularly stated is not an explanation for the dire straits that the process is currently in.
The Current mess, adding additional conditions, providing covering letters to allow for possession after expiry, (legally dubious) causing section 7 certs to be issued. Etc. All of these add workload for staff and cost whilst stating that they don’t have the staff.
Madness.

 

[8x57]

I was told directly from the FEO that complaints directly to firearms department just get ignored. I went above them and it really helped when my renewal was delayed.

That could very well be true.

When I had an issue some years ago and got nowhere writing to the firearms department or even the Chief Constable I was advised by Bill Harriman to make a formal complaint against the supervising officer in charge of the firearms department, a Superintendent, the charge being neglect of duty. I also copied in the chair of the police authority.
A few days later I had a telephone call from a senior officer in the professional standards department asking if he plus his Superintendent could visit me at my home to discuss my complaint. I was asked if I was prepared to drop my complaint if they could sort it out immediately. My renewed certificate was posted to me the following day and the officer who I originally spoke to in the professional standards department asked me to keep him informed if I had any problems in the future. My next renewal went through almost by return of post.

Since then there have been several changes of staff in the firearms department and the standard of service is vastly improved on how it used to be in those bad old days. I've certainly had no reason to complain in recent years even if they did need to use the full automatic 8 week extension (due to staff shortages and covid) to get my certificates back to me when I renewed last January.

 

[Steve2_1]

Having followed this thread with a vested interest (Another Dorset resident)..I will share my experiences with my renewal via D&C.

Well done you. I have done a similar thing in a different way. All shall be revealed in due course.

 

[Sonicdmb73]

You can pay online.
You can fill in the form digitally however not all forces.
Removing moderators from licensing isn't going to make applications faster. The police can't tell the government on what policy and procedure should be adopted.

Licensing do more than just grants.

Safeguarding of cert holders and thier immediate family members.
Spontaneous revocations.
Voluntary surrenders.
Visitor permits.
Rfd applications
Rfd visits and management.
Land checks
Prosecutions, File building, evidence gathering, court appearances appeal process.
Wellbeing and management of cert holders with illness/terminal.
Explosive visits and management.
Section 5 admistration
Training
Seizures and storage.
Vetting and security.
Range classification
Rifle clubs shooting clubs.
Certain medical/vets animal park facilties.
All the above are day in day out workload of licensing departments. So it's not all about grants renewals and variations. The average across the country is around 16 months. A number of factors are involved but that's what it is.

I’m well aware of what they do. However I stand by my comment.
Taking moderators off ticket will reduce the workload, I have one for each firearm so it would halve the work for my certificate as far as entering/checking details.
If you have a digital system of notification for sales and a banded system for cartridges. So you can sell one and buy another (through a RFD if necessary) without need for a 1 for 1. You take more workload away, so you can spend more time on initial grants and following up intelligence etc.
As far as paying online not with Lancashire you can’t, I did a 1 for 1 a couple of months ago. They rang me to do a payment over the phone (another waste of time as it was a free one) as they did for my renewal. How much time is wasted this way?

 

[Jeff8861]

I’m well aware of what they do. However I stand by my comment.
Taking moderators off ticket will reduce the workload, I have one for each firearm so it would halve the work for my certificate as far as entering/checking details.
If you have a digital system of notification for sales and a banded system for cartridges. So you can sell one and buy another (through a RFD if necessary) without need for a 1 for 1. You take more workload away, so you can spend more time on initial grants and following up intelligence etc.
As far as paying online not with Lancashire you can’t, I did a 1 for 1 a couple of months ago. They rang me to do a payment over the phone (another waste of time as it was a free one) as they did for my renewal. How much time is wasted this way?

It take 2 seconds to remove or add anything to the nflms so removing mods will make no difference.
The current system is digital however not for sale or re sale items hence the face to face transaction. I agree remove mods remove the one to one farce enhance the current system which is now out for tender. Staffing finances and dilly dallying by the government during the pandemic has played a massive part in the grant process. Licensing departments were told to concentrate on renewals however they are now back on the grants.
However one of the biggest causes for tying up staff and delays are current certificate holders having to be revoked or voluntary surrender.

 

[Sonicdmb73]

It take 2 seconds to remove or add anything to the nflms so removing mods will make no difference.
The current system is digital however not for sale or re sale items hence the face to face transaction. I agree remove mods remove the one to one farce enhance the current system which is now out for tender. Staffing finances and dilly dallying by the government during the pandemic has played a massive part in the grant process. Licensing departments were told to concentrate on renewals however they are now back on the grants.
However one of the biggest causes for tying up staff and delays are current certificate holders having to be revoked or voluntary surrender.

The current system is not digital. The information might be logged on to a computer. But it is far from digital. I still have to download and print a paper form. This is then entered manually by staff. In this day and age it is ridiculous for staff to be wasting valuable time doing this.
I recently applied for my “picture” driving license. All done online even confirmation of my ID.
So why can’t firearms licencing manage to get a working online system in place?
Secure systems are already in use across multiple platforms and across the military, government and banking to name a few.
I disagree that it takes two minutes to remove or add anything on the current system. As forms need to be read and re-read, add in poor handwriting and it all adds up. Letting us the applicant do most of the work makes far more sense. You can program computers to watch for suspicious activity and flag it.
The truth of it is that they don’t want it to be easy. They want us to give up and find another hobby, they simply don’t want private firearm ownership.

 

[Jeff8861]

The current system is not digital. The information might be logged on to a computer. But it is far from digital. I still have to download and print a paper form. This is then entered manually by staff. In this day and age it is ridiculous for staff to be wasting valuable time doing this.
I recently applied for my “picture” driving license. All done online even confirmation of my ID.
So why can’t firearms licencing manage to get a working online system in place?
Secure systems are already in use across multiple platforms and across the military, government and banking to name a few.
I disagree that it takes two minutes to remove or add anything on the current system. As forms need to be read and re-read, add in poor handwriting and it all adds up. Letting us the applicant do most of the work makes far more sense. You can program computers to watch for suspicious activity and flag it.
The truth of it is that they don’t want it to be easy. They want us to give up and find another hobby, they simply don’t want private firearm ownership.

How many times have you entered the information on to the system. It is easy and basic and what are you takling about suspicious activity. Re your comments about they want us to to give up and find another hobby. It's clear you haven't read my comments and will find a ridicouls theory to try and support your comment. You have no idea.

 

[badmolassesaccident]

Then it should be resolved accordingly. Lack of budget and staff as regularly stated is not an explanation for the dire straits that the process is currently in.
The Current mess, adding additional conditions, providing covering letters to allow for possession after expiry, (legally dubious) causing section 7 certs to be issued. Etc. All of these add workload for staff and cost whilst stating that they don’t have the staff.
Madness.

It’s not up to the police to “resolve” it. If they don’t have the resources, they cannot “resolve” processing times any more than they can resolve the majority of crime which goes uninvestigated, due to lack of resources.

If you want it “resolved”, vote for a government which funds public services better than they evidently are not being funded now.

 

[Druid]

It’s not up to the police to “resolve” it. If they don’t have the resources, they cannot “resolve” processing times any more than they can resolve the majority of crime which goes uninvestigated, due to lack of resources.

If you want it “resolved”, vote for a government which funds public services better than they evidently are not being funded now.

I disagree. If they insist on wasting time on duplicating efforts by paper then electronic data entry, sending out dubious letters and section 7 certs then they need to cut out those inefficiencies and speed up.
Paperwork for firearm’s licenses and solving crime are completely different spheres so stand no comparison.
As to the choice of government. They all squandered taxes with no improvement so good luck to you if you are hoping for that to fix things.

 

[badmolassesaccident]

I disagree. If they insist on wasting time on duplicating efforts by paper then electronic data entry, sending out dubious letters and section 7 certs then they need to cut out those inefficiencies and speed up.
Paperwork for firearm’s licenses and solving crime are completely different spheres so stand no comparison.
As to the choice of government. They all squandered taxes with no improvement so good luck to you if you are hoping for that to fix things.

The police do not get a pot of funding which says firearms certificates and another pot that says crime prevention. The police just get funding. If the police don’t have enough funding, then all police services decline.

Section 7 certificates require less checking than a full renewal. That can save them some time to keep the firearms owner legal, at the expense of a greater overall workload. That is what people and organisations do when they are under-resourced. They only can solve the problem of the moment.

Have you not notice that all public services in all areas have declined? Yet you expect firearms licensing to magically be immune from this decline.

 

[Druid]

The police do not get a pot of funding which says firearms certificates and another pot that says crime prevention. The police just get funding. If the police don’t have enough funding, then all police services decline.

Section 7 certificates require less checking than a full renewal. That can save them some time to keep the firearms owner legal, at the expense of a greater overall workload. That is what people and organisations do when they are under-resourced. They only can solve the problem of the moment.

Have you not notice that all public services in all areas have declined? Yet you expect firearms licensing to magically be immune from this decline.

You are obviously not reading what I said about duplication and wasted effort.
Of course I get the fact that there is a finite resource. I’m not expecting magic. Just a service that is not shockingly inefficient. It’s for chief constables, PCCs etc to sort their services out.
I’m glad you are happy with the crap service, I’m not prepared to make apologies for it.

 

[badmolassesaccident]

^ I read it, but I’m not seeing significant efficiency to be made by the things you have listed, such as electronic submission of applications.

If it was possible for chief constables to “sort their services out” on the available funding, it would be done by now. This applies to all aspects of policing. Do you think the police like to see criminals going about committing crimes and not have the resources to do something about it?

 

[Druid]

Do you think the police like to see criminals going about committing crimes and not have the resources to do something about it?

Where did I say I thought that?
do you think people waiting many months for a simple renewal is acceptable?
Firearms licensing is not front line policing‘catching criminals’ as you put it. It almost completely civilians carrying out admin. Not sure why you think the current situation is acceptable?
If the Chief constable is unable to achieve what they are employed to do they shouldn’t be in their positions.

 

[Jeff8861]

Where did I say I thought that?
do you think people waiting many months for a simple renewal is acceptable?
Firearms licensing is not front line policing‘catching criminals’ as you put it. It almost completely civilians carrying out admin. Not sure why you think the current situation is acceptable?
If the Chief constable is unable to achieve what they are employed to do they shouldn’t be in their positions.

Yet more comments from folk who have no idea what goes on within a licensing departments.
Dubious letters ,?
Section 7
Duplication
Simple renewals.
If you are going to make these open ended quotes at least provide some evidence or facts.

 

[Druid]

Yet more comments from folk who have no idea what goes on within a licensing departments.
Dubious letters ,?
Section 7
Duplication
Simple renewals.
If you are going to make these open ended quotes at least provide some evidence or facts.

I don’t actually care what happens in the departments. As I’m sure they don’t care what happens at my workplace.
I care that they don’t do their jobs in an efficient and timely fashion.
If you were trying to keep a gunshop in business whilst your potential customers couldn’t get their certificates or variations within the same year would you be such an apologist?

 

[Jeff8861]

I don’t actually care what happens in the departments. As I’m sure they don’t care what happens at my workplace.
I care that they don’t do their jobs in an efficient and timely fashion.
If you were trying to keep a gunshop in business whilst your potential customers couldn’t get their certificates or variations within the same year would you be such an apologist?

You don't care what goes on but belittle them anyways. Again another one who makes theses spurious claims without any evidence or expirence.

 

[Jh1986]

If the Chief constable is unable to achieve what they are employed to do they shouldn’t be in their positions.

I would have normally been on that train of thought too, until my wife became the head of a publicly funded school. To see a school with about a £1k buffer for the year, before the staff wage increase was announced, before anything goes wrong like a leak or something (ageing Victorian building and they get no more funding than a brand spanking new school up the road).

I'm starting to see that running public services just isn't possible on the budgets given. She's had the council down to see where money could be saved. They walked away having concluded that there's nothing to be done.

Too much money is frankly skimmed off the top before the departments actually get it to spend.

 

[badmolassesaccident]

If the Chief constable is unable to achieve what they are employed to do they shouldn’t be in their positions.

If you give any public organisation a set of things to do, but you don't provide them funding to do it, then it isn't the fault of the person at the head of that organisation that the things you want done, don't get done.

Using your argument, you want the chief constable to quit because firearms licensing is too slow. Personally I can work with the way my force does firearms licensing, however I'd like more police funding so I can do simple things like leave my motorbike parked in London without thinking it might still get stolen despite having a 16mm anchor chain tied around it to an immovable object. Whatever, there is agreement that various aspects of policing are not at a good standard.

If the chief constable quits, what do you think that will achieve? The next chief constable is not going to have any additional money. They are not going to be able to magic up more police or more admin staff out of nothing. Of course then you would want the next chief constable to quit. An the the one after that. Wow, no matter how many new chief constable we get, it just always seems to be crap. Maybe the fault does not lie with the chief constable or the police.

 

[Druid]

You don't care what goes on but belittle them anyways. Again another one who makes theses spurious claims without any evidence or expirence.

What spurious claims are you on about? I have had a ‘letter’ not an official document saying I can keep my firearms past the expiry date of my certificate, I’m not aware of that being allowed in the firearms act are you? much later followed by a section 7 as the leter was no longer in date. Followed eventually by the certificate.
If that’s not a waste of time and effort and sending multiple paperwork out what is???
I’m glad that you are happy with the service and have all the excuses. Well done you.
Meanwhile those employed to provide a service don’t provide the service.
But still get paid.
Glad you’re not running a gun shop though.
I don’t see RFDs being supported while the system is being allowed to fail.