My diary of my FAC application 😵‍💫

[Sonicdmb73]

How many times have you entered the information on to the system. It is easy and basic and what are you takling about suspicious activity. Re your comments about they want us to to give up and find another hobby. It's clear you haven't read my comments and will find a ridicouls theory to try and support your comment. You have no idea.

You accuse me of not reading your post. Did you actually read mine?
It's quite simple, for anyone to sit and read a form then type it into the computer takes time. A simple unarguable point. whether ti takes minute or hours per application is a moot point. It takes time.
So I will make the point this way.
I sell an item that makes me £1 per item sold. They are all sold via the internet and have to be posted. It takes me minute per sale to log in and print their details for posting. So I can process 60/hour I make £60/hour. Or I can get the customer to do all that and just print labels. I can now process three times as many (picked at random but quite possible) so make £180/hour as a result.
Does it matter how I input the data? Damned right it does time is money regardless of whether you are in business or the Civil Service someone is paying for that time.

As for suspicious activity, I mean you can program computers to flag transactions for staff to take a closer look at. For example Mr Bloggs is buying and selling four or five shotguns a week, but is not a RFD. So the computer flags this and the FEO goes to interview Mr Bloggs. Then for arguments sake warning him he might get his SGC revoked if it doesn't stop. But for the most part the system is handled by the computer with use the certificate holders doing the work. Effectively for free, ie not paid staff doing "simple" data entry. But doing other things on the list that are far more worthy of their limited time.

The current system is very inefficient and a long way behind the likes of Driving licenses Passports etc. There's no reason why we can't have a more efficient cost effective service without loosing security of the process.

As for no idea I have a very good idea thanks. The ability of Government run/funded services to waste money never ceases to amaze me. Some of it is criminal in my opinion, the system is broken. Unlike private industry there's not incentive to save money, and it shows. I have seen budgets overrun buy thousands on far too many occasions it really is soul destroying to watch. If I ran my business the same way I'd go bust.

 

[Jeff8861]

What spurious claims are you on about? I have had a ‘letter’ not an official document saying I can keep my firearms past the expiry date of my certificate, I’m not aware of that being allowed in the firearms act are you? much later followed by a section 7 as the leter was no longer in date. Followed eventually by the certificate.
If that’s not a waste of time and effort and sending multiple paperwork out what is???
I’m glad that you are happy with the service and have all the excuses. Well done you.
Meanwhile those employed to provide a service don’t provide the service.
But still get paid.
Glad you’re not running a gun shop though.
I don’t see RFDs being supported while the system is being allowed to fail.

Yes the letter is official check out the statutory guidance. Section 7 issued follows on from the letter all legal. That's the current procedure and all that is down to government procedure I won't go into the details of this. I've never said I'm happy but you have to work with what we have. Making up false statements and listening to rumours doesn't help the situation. I'm offering a balanced approach based on knowledge and expirence and noy playground gossip.
I don't need to run a gun shop and again has no bearing on the licensing issues. There is still plenty of scope within the current situation for rfd to carry on with thier business.

 

[Jeff8861]

You accuse me of not reading your post. Did you actually read mine?
It's quite simple, for anyone to sit and read a form then type it into the computer takes time. A simple unarguable point. whether ti takes minute or hours per application is a moot point. It takes time.
So I will make the point this way.
I sell an item that makes me £1 per item sold. They are all sold via the internet and have to be posted. It takes me minute per sale to log in and print their details for posting. So I can process 60/hour I make £60/hour. Or I can get the customer to do all that and just print labels. I can now process three times as many (picked at random but quite possible) so make £180/hour as a result.
Does it matter how I input the data? Damned right it does time is money regardless of whether you are in business or the Civil Service someone is paying for that time.

As for suspicious activity, I mean you can program computers to flag transactions for staff to take a closer look at. For example Mr Bloggs is buying and selling four or five shotguns a week, but is not a RFD. So the computer flags this and the FEO goes to interview Mr Bloggs. Then for arguments sake warning him he might get his SGC revoked if it doesn't stop. But for the most part the system is handled by the computer with use the certificate holders doing the work. Effectively for free, ie not paid staff doing "simple" data entry. But doing other things on the list that are far more worthy of their limited time.

The current system is very inefficient and a long way behind the likes of Driving licenses Passports etc. There's no reason why we can't have a more efficient cost effective service without loosing security of the process.

As for no idea I have a very good idea thanks. The ability of Government run/funded services to waste money never ceases to amaze me. Some of it is criminal in my opinion, the system is broken. Unlike private industry there's not incentive to save money, and it shows. I have seen budgets overrun buy thousands on far too many occasions it really is soul destroying to watch. If I ran my business the same way I'd go bust.

From you're response in relation to you're examples it appears you have little knowledge of how the system works.

 

[badmolassesaccident]

^ There is a statutory 8 week extension which allows you lawful possession of your firearms past the end date of your FAC. That's what the letter is about.

One reason for giving this is if the applicant has applied in good time, but they have been unable to contact referees or obtain the GP report.

Another reason is that the police are under-resourced and doing this buys them more time to complete the FAC. For this, see my previous post. It is due to underfunding, not any fault of the police. Firing the police, getting different police or complaining about it won't do anything. Funding the public services adequately - which is not the case now - will do something.

As Jeff8861 points out above, once that 8 week extension is up, if your FAC has still not been renewed, then you get a Section 7.

"But still get paid."
Are you suggesting the solution to underfunding of the police is just to not pay them at all and see how that goes?

 

[Sonicdmb73]

From you're response in relation to you're examples it appears you have little knowledge of how the system works.

Really.
From your replies it appears you can’t grasp a simple concept. Time is finite. If the system is backlogged then finding ways to make your staff more productive. In lieu of more funding (which isn’t available) you take the technology available and make better use of it.
Most Forces are not doing that. Working from paper forms is not efficient. What part of that don’t you understand?
Removing the need for quite possibly half the “firearms” registered to be on ticket. Again saves time.
I have been dealing with the “system” for years I do know how it works. I also know that there are better ways to do it than those currently being used.
Forms filled in and paid for online. Interviews can be done via zoom, followed up in person if the FEO thinks it’s necessary. There’s multiple ways to save time, which can then be used to get other work done.

The way you keep defending the poor way in which the system is “working”. I am wondering what you do for a living? You are quick enough to question my knowledge of how “it” works.
I wonder what makes you an expert?

 

[Dorsettaff]

What we all seem to agree on is that the system is broken. The whys and wherefores are a moot point but basically as in any other branch of the public service it has been an exponential increase in demands (compliance) countered with a inexorable cost cutting.

We can do something about it. We can complain!

Every system has certain metrics that they are measured by and flag up a need to change and one of those is the amount of complaints a service receives. The more complaints logged, the more likely it is that the inspectors of said service will look into it and act. Complaints look bad to each department, department head and head of organisation. Someone, somewhere has to carry the can...ultimately perhaps ending up on front of a Commons Committee being grilled on how their service is failing the public and being made to look very uneasy about it.

As I said previously we all are very quick to complain to Ebay, Paypal, Amazon or our local superstore if we dont receive the service we expect but we seem to roll over when it comes to public bodies such as Police or NHS.

You dont have to be personal, nasty and vindictive about it. Just state the facts and hold those up to the published mission and values of said organisation stating that they are failing by their own set standards.

The constant drip, drip,drip of complaints mounting up and having to be actioned will gather traction.

 

[Steve2_1]

Now now gentlemen! We may not agree with everyone's thoughts and opinions, aside from things need to change for the better, for everyone's benefit.

The harsh reality is, as much as it needs to improve with turnaround times and service levels, FAC departments are not a police 'top of the list' priority when faced with all the other challenges the public sector faces. And for every one of us, there are like 20 other Joe public saying ban firearms. We all know who's side local crime commissioners will go on to remain voted in with this one.

I, like many others, have constructively complained with proposed solutions to my local dept stating facts and all that which thankfully has gained some traction but until a monumental change occurs like a centrally based FAC dept serving the UK with only one interpretation of the law, it'll be a long road ahead until it gets better for everyone. Yes it sucks, I'm in the boat too.

The Ideal would national organisations like BASC really put pressure on the right places to get things moving in a more positive direction, rather than us individuals. But again, look at the public sector, root cause is from a source much higher up.
Just my thoughts, what do I know?

 

[8x57]

Other than publicising incompetence and inefficiency BASC the NGO or any other shooting organisation have no way of really applying pressure.

 

[badmolassesaccident]

Really.
From your replies it appears you can’t grasp a simple concept. Time is finite. If the system is backlogged then finding ways to make your staff more productive. In lieu of more funding (which isn’t available) you take the technology available and make better use of it.
Most Forces are not doing that. Working from paper forms is not efficient. What part of that don’t you understand?
Removing the need for quite possibly half the “firearms” registered to be on ticket. Again saves time.
I have been dealing with the “system” for years I do know how it works. I also know that there are better ways to do it than those currently being used.
Forms filled in and paid for online. Interviews can be done via zoom, followed up in person if the FEO thinks it’s necessary. There’s multiple ways to save time, which can then be used to get other work done.

The way you keep defending the poor way in which the system is “working”. I am wondering what you do for a living? You are quick enough to question my knowledge of how “it” works.
I wonder what makes you an expert?

My force already does online applications (not that I think doing it online vs paper makes much difference overall). There was no home visit on renewal. It was done by phone.

So they have done the two time saving items which you and Druid have identified.

My FAC renewal was still late. I received the statutory 8 week extension. My FAC was renewed on the firearms registry the day before that 8 weeks expired, but it still took another month for the police to post me my certificate. There are people in the same force area in my rifle club, who have been waiting over a year for a FAC grant.

I don't blame the police for this. Infact when they got to my FAC, the individual police involved were very efficient and knowledgable. The police are doing what is possible, with their available funding. Suggesting the police "just do better" doesn't cut it. They need funding to do better. They don't have it. It's like suggesting my local council "just does better" in repairing local roads, the NHS "just does better" to reduce waiting lists or the previous PM's (Truss) idea to just tell the police what percentage of crimes they needed to solve, without providing any additional funding to do that. If you don't fund something, it does't work, it's that simple. Funding has been reduced for years. Any easy gains in working practices have already happened.

 

[Jeff8861]

Really.
From your replies it appears you can’t grasp a simple concept. Time is finite. If the system is backlogged then finding ways to make your staff more productive. In lieu of more funding (which isn’t available) you take the technology available and make better use of it.
Most Forces are not doing that. Working from paper forms is not efficient. What part of that don’t you understand?
Removing the need for quite possibly half the “firearms” registered to be on ticket. Again saves time.
I have been dealing with the “system” for years I do know how it works. I also know that there are better ways to do it than those currently being used.
Forms filled in and paid for online. Interviews can be done via zoom, followed up in person if the FEO thinks it’s necessary. There’s multiple ways to save time, which can then be used to get other work done.

The way you keep defending the poor way in which the system is “working”. I am wondering what you do for a living? You are quick enough to question my knowledge of how “it” works.
I wonder what makes you an expert?

Which system have you been dealing with how long have you worked in firearms licensing

 

[JTO]

My certificates had run out for several months before I was contacted to say that they(Dorset) were issuing me with temporary certificates.

 

[Klenchblaize]

It’s clear there are views from both frustrated applicants and those with a connection with the authorities that comprise the granting of an FAC that feel hurt by any number of assertions around poor service so perhaps we might ‘park’ the attendant agendas and ask but one question:

Is the current licensing system fit for purpose?

K

 

[badmolassesaccident]

Is the current licensing system fit for purpose?

Personally, I don't think moderators should be on ticket and I don't think there should be limits on ammo holding. And I think you should be able to hand a firearm to a RFD to a dealer and buy another one of the same caliber, without a 1-for-1. I'd also like centerfire semi-autos allowed; maybe with a magazine capacity limit.

But overall, I think the licensing system as it is now would be quite OK, -if- it was funded properly and you were able to post your FAC to the police and have it sent back with whatever change was requested within a few days. And if you could send in your renewal docs a month ahead and have your renewed FAC back before expiry. This is not the case now, due to lack of police funding. So at the moment, I see it as a funding problem, nothing more.

My force has never complained of giving me a lot of guns (I have a double digit number). They are just slow.

 

[Klenchblaize]

Personally, I don't think moderators should be on ticket and I don't think there should be limits on ammo holding. And I think you should be able to hand a firearm to a RFD to a dealer and buy another one of the same caliber, without a 1-for-1. I'd also like centerfire semi-autos allowed; maybe with a magazine capacity limit.

But overall, I think the licensing system as it is now would be quite OK, -if- it was funded properly and you were able to post your FAC to the police and have it sent back with whatever change was requested within a few days. And if you could send in your renewal docs a month ahead and have your renewed FAC back before expiry. This is not the case now, due to lack of police funding. So at the moment, I see it as a funding problem, nothing more.

My force has never complained of giving me a lot of guns (I have a double digit number). They are just slow.

That’s not an answer but rather a wish list!

K

 

[badmolassesaccident]

That’s not an answer but rather a wish list!

K

A wish list would be more adventurous. Like full auto 22 rimfires! Maybe with some restrictions to keep the Home Office happy, like need to put it into semi-auto if you want to hunt squirrels

Anyway, the answer was yes, the licensing system is fit for purpose in theory. In recent practical implementation however, it is under-funded like so many public services, so it’s too slow.

 

[Sonicdmb73]

My force already does online applications (not that I think doing it online vs paper makes much difference overall). There was no home visit on renewal. It was done by phone.

So they have done the two time saving items which you and Druid have identified.

My FAC renewal was still late. I received the statutory 8 week extension. My FAC was renewed on the firearms registry the day before that 8 weeks expired, but it still took another month for the police to post me my certificate. There are people in the same force area in my rifle club, who have been waiting over a year for a FAC grant.

I don't blame the police for this. Infact when they got to my FAC, the individual police involved were very efficient and knowledgable. The police are doing what is possible, with their available funding. Suggesting the police "just do better" doesn't cut it. They need funding to do better. They don't have it. It's like suggesting my local council "just does better" in repairing local roads, the NHS "just does better" to reduce waiting lists or the previous PM's (Truss) idea to just tell the police what percentage of crimes they needed to solve, without providing any additional funding to do that. If you don't fund something, it does't work, it's that simple. Funding has been reduced for years. Any easy gains in working practices have already happened.

Your force might do some of what I said, but mine certainly doesn’t. Just throwing money at a problem doesn’t necessarily make it better. I have seen tens of thousands of pounds wasted by the NHS and local authorities. On projects I was involved with. So no funding alone is not the answer. If extra money is not used appropriately then you’re just wasting it.

Which system have you been dealing with how long have you worked in firearms licensing

Same back at you? You seem to be very defensive about the criticism. Are you job, ex job?
On my part I have dealt with Firearms licensing quite a lot over the years. I can honestly say that the current “service” is the worst I have seen.
Judging by the figures on grant and renewal times my comment is not unwarranted.

 

[Dave_45]

Walked into French street yesterday for a variation at 1300 , got a call today to collect at about the same time.

 

[Jeff8861]

Your force might do some of what I said, but mine certainly doesn’t. Just throwing money at a problem doesn’t necessarily make it better. I have seen tens of thousands of pounds wasted by the NHS and local authorities. On projects I was involved with. So no funding alone is not the answer. If extra money is not used appropriately then you’re just wasting it.

Same back at you? You seem to be very defensive about the criticism. Are you job, ex job?
On my part I have dealt with Firearms licensing quite a lot over the years. I can honestly say that the current “service” is the worst I have seen.
Judging by the figures on grant and renewal times my comment is not unwarranted.

Not defensive at all however you are very evasive when it comes to me asking specific questions. Im.not trying to catch you out abd just trying to clarify points. I take it from your reply that the only interactions with firearms licensing is that of submitting grants renewals and variations, that's fine. I see lots of comments on this forum on the licensing topic. I have to say a vast amount are incorrect or people are just moaning. In addition you see comments re timescale of renewals however when you probe the individual they havent submitted in time and this refers you back to grant status but they dont mention this. I try and balance the arguement or dimiss some of the crazy rumours.
Ultimately you cant blame the licensing as during the pandemic they were instructed to concentrate on renewals and this was then changed again.
I would agree it's not great but it's getting there. My area are doing renewals and it's about 2-4 months at the minute grants are around 14 months. Also bear in mind that licensing do more than just grants and renewals

 

[Sonicdmb73]

Not defensive at all however you are very evasive when it comes to me asking specific questions. Im.not trying to catch you out abd just trying to clarify points. I take it from your reply that the only interactions with firearms licensing is that of submitting grants renewals and variations, that's fine. I see lots of comments on this forum on the licensing topic. I have to say a vast amount are incorrect or people are just moaning. In addition you see comments re timescale of renewals however when you probe the individual they havent submitted in time and this refers you back to grant status but they dont mention this. I try and balance the arguement or dimiss some of the crazy rumours.
Ultimately you cant blame the licensing as during the pandemic they were instructed to concentrate on renewals and this was then changed again.
I would agree it's not great but it's getting there. My area are doing renewals and it's about 2-4 months at the minute grants are around 14 months. Also bear in mind that licensing do more than just grants and renewals

I am well aware that they deal with more than just FAC and SGC. But I am also well aware that they have had more than one failed attempt at computer systems. That I have on numerous occasions been asked for things that are not relevant or part of HOG (that when challenged as such stopped being required). I have also had phone calls for payment over the phone. Had a conversation about payment in which I pointed out that the last few cheques that I had written were all to them. That banks no longer issued them and pointed out that online payments were the norm with most things now. To be told that basically the police didn’t trust their staff so that’s why they were doing it via phone late on in the process.
I have friends who are RFD’s and others who have black powder licenses and Section Five dealer explosives licenses too. So not limited to just my experience. Even if I was very pessimistic as to each of these people lying about parts of what is going on in their dealings with the FLD. It is still a sorry state from what it was.
I am not naive enough to think that it is all the departments fault. But some of it was caused by specific managers (silly deviations from HOG for example). Some of it is funding.
However I have enough experience with how public funding works and how much is wasted. Things that are just not done in the private sector. That cries of underfunding when factors that could be addressed are not being. Then I am sorry but my sympathy wears thin.
Is the current system fit for purpose, in my opinion no. Could it be better certainly, but some of it would require legislation changes. I don’t trust those to be made without attempts to limit private ownership by those who would not have private ownership of firearms. If they had it their own way during any changes not to meddle with any improvements you tried to make.
The biggest improvement I believe that could be made. Would improve public funded services in my opinion. Is get rid of the spend it or lose it funding and reward those who spend money wisely. Again it is a major problem and quite possibly involves some legislative changes. But the current system has hospital departments buying date sensitive products to spend budget that they cannot use in the timeframe. Then pay out again for disposable of the same items. Have projects overrun budgets because of mismanagement and failure to take advice from people better qualified. Only to see work done twice, seen over spend budgets (usually 10%) busted at the start of a multi million pound project. Due to nobody wanting to claim responsibility for the state of equipment in a department. Then I am sorry if I come across as syndical and unsympathetic but the system is broken.

 

[Jeff8861]

I am well aware that they deal with more than just FAC and SGC. But I am also well aware that they have had more than one failed attempt at computer systems. That I have on numerous occasions been asked for things that are not relevant or part of HOG (that when challenged as such stopped being required). I have also had phone calls for payment over the phone. Had a conversation about payment in which I pointed out that the last few cheques that I had written were all to them. That banks no longer issued them and pointed out that online payments were the norm with most things now. To be told that basically the police didn’t trust their staff so that’s why they were doing it via phone late on in the process.
I have friends who are RFD’s and others who have black powder licenses and Section Five dealer explosives licenses too. So not limited to just my experience. Even if I was very pessimistic as to each of these people lying about parts of what is going on in their dealings with the FLD. It is still a sorry state from what it was.
I am not naive enough to think that it is all the departments fault. But some of it was caused by specific managers (silly deviations from HOG for example). Some of it is funding.
However I have enough experience with how public funding works and how much is wasted. Things that are just not done in the private sector. That cries of underfunding when factors that could be addressed are not being. Then I am sorry but my sympathy wears thin.
Is the current system fit for purpose, in my opinion no. Could it be better certainly, but some of it would require legislation changes. I don’t trust those to be made without attempts to limit private ownership by those who would not have private ownership of firearms. If they had it their own way during any changes not to meddle with any improvements you tried to make.
The biggest improvement I believe that could be made. Would improve public funded services in my opinion. Is get rid of the spend it or lose it funding and reward those who spend money wisely. Again it is a major problem and quite possibly involves some legislative changes. But the current system has hospital departments buying date sensitive products to spend budget that they cannot use in the timeframe. Then pay out again for disposable of the same items. Have projects overrun budgets because of mismanagement and failure to take advice from people better qualified. Only to see work done twice, seen over spend budgets (usually 10%) busted at the start of a multi million pound project. Due to nobody wanting to claim responsibility for the state of equipment in a department. Then I am sorry if I come across as syndical and unsympathetic but the system is broken.

There hasn't been a change in the system for over 15 years. There is an going tendering going at the minute for an upgrade. The majority of forces have payment via bacs. I will leave it there.