No Tox Frustrstion.

[Harry mac]

I'm having a hard time getting a non toxic load worked up for my .308 Sauer 202.
The pic shows what is simultaniously, the best, and worse group so far.
Typically, it puys the first shot high, and the next 3 in a group several inches lower.
Non toxic is costing me a f@<&ing fortune in bullets and powder so far. I can always use the powder, but what do you do with nearly £200 worth of bullets that don't suit your rifle?
Tempted just to stick with lead.
My .223 shoots no tox nicely, and my .243 gives ok results, but the .308 is frustrating, and the .303 scatters them all over the target.

 

[Overlay]

yep same here I ended up using Fox factory ammunition in my 308 that works ok

 

[finnbear270]

Are you driving them at a decent speed?, & what weight bullet?

 

[wytonpjs]

Interestingly, I still have the same issue with the first round being high but not always (Barnes TTSX 130gr .308). Initially I thought it was just cold barrel but given I quite often only fire one round whilst out stalking, they are not always high! Somewhat at a loss as the rest are grouping well - the attached was on a quite windy, blustery day.

 

[Smellydog]

I'm saying nothing


Yeah I am, get some bloody powder behind them but stop if the bolt gets stiff, report back.

 

[Mike L]

Not sure on your barrel twist/length etc but I am getting good results (40 deer so far) with 130 barnes ttsx using 47.1 gn of N140
runs at 2857 average in a tikka t3x

 

[Harry mac]

I've not chrono'ed them yet, but I'm giving them a good shove with N530; this load was 46gr. Interestingly, the higher the powder charge, the tighter the 3 togeter shots got, but further away from the initial one.

 

[hendrix's rifle]

Does it only do It with lead free or with your usual bullets? Maybe worth firing a group from cold and seeing what the crack is there. It could be lots of things but definitely worth trying to replicate with lead before you continue

 

[NullMac]

That's a big variation. Is everything tightened up?

 

[Harry mac]

Not sure on your barrel twist/length etc but I am getting good results (40 deer so far) with 130 barnes ttsx using 47.1 gn of N140
runs at 2857 average in a tikka t3x

Barrel twist ist 1:12", standard for Sauer in .308 Win.
Bullet is a Nielsen Sonic 110gr.
Everything on the rifle and scope set up is tight.
My normal, Sierra Pro-Hunter load typically will shoot 3 into an inch to an inch and a tiny bit with 3 shots from cold. 2 will be touching, and one about an inch away. So similar grouping characteristics, but nowhere near as pronounced as this.
I've also tried their 140gr bullet, and it behaved similarly.

 

[Danny Fireblade]

I use a TTSX 130gr in .308
45.5gr of N530
COAL of 2.800"
Tikka T3x Super Varmint
20" barrel
1:11 twist
MV 3100fps and I am getting 3 shots touching.

 

[Heym SR20]

Clearly something is not working. Factory loads for the Fox bullets use N140 and N540, N530 might be a bit fast.

When testing loads, shoot each round from a cold barrel. It may take some time, but it’s a waste of time with many sporting rifles to test loads with rapid groups as things heat up. How often do you kill a deer on your fifth or sixth rapid shot. Not many. Your first round is the one that counts and the one you need confidence in.

Also you have to accept that not all bullets, or brands of ammo suit all rifles. It always has been the case and always will be. In this case it may be the bullets, may be the powder, or a combination of both.

And be realistic in group sizes. You do need tiny little groups to kill deer. Provided you within a couple of inches of point of aim with a boiler room shot, no deer will go very far.

 

[Smellydog]

110gn, fill the case and crush it.

 

[big ears]

Before you shell out more dosh give your barrel a really good deep clean. Completely de copper it.
Might just make the difference

 

[Leec6.5]

Before you shell out more dosh give your barrel a really good deep clean. Completely de copper it.
Might just make the difference

100% make sure that barrel is spotless before shooting copper!

Worked for me when many years ago my 6.5 was being a slag and wouldn’t group.

 

[Leupsak]

I use Barnes TTSx and TSX and found the way to save tears was to deep clean then follow the guidance on their site, its unlike loading toxic as you load for speed and watch for pressure at 50th off the lands then just keep backing off until you get the group. my 223 is 60th off the lands, my 308 likes 125th off and my 7mm is 200th and all give clover leaf groups when originally I had groups like you describe.
I use N140 for all 3 calibers.

 

[jcampbellsmith]

Try a different bullet. Geco zero factory and Fox 130gr dactory both work well in my 308.
Regards
JCS

 

[Leec6.5]

I use Barnes TTSx and TSX and found the way to save tears was to deep clean then follow the guidance on their site, its unlike loading toxic as you load for speed and watch for pressure at 50th off the lands then just keep backing off until you get the group. my 223 is 60th off the lands, my 308 likes 125th off and my 7mm is 200th and all give clover leaf groups when originally I had groups like you describe.
I use N140 for all 3 calibers.

That is cock on!

6.5 took me well over £100 to get to group which could have easily been halved, if not more, if I cleaned my barrel, first!

Bearing in mind that was back in 2008/2009

The 270 on the other hand, a slag that she is, clean the barrel, load it up 10 rounds, slipped one up and groups within the first three!

It’s a simple as that.

 

[25 Sharps]

Try some yew tree, copper, rather than brass which is what the Neilsen are. Have worked in the 3 calibres I have tried them in so far and that’s without cleaning the barrel first.

 

[Leec6.5]

Try some yew tree, copper, rather than brass which is what the Neilsen are. Have worked in the 3 calibres I have tried them in so far and that’s without cleaning the barrel first.

Yes, but what’s the point in spending more money on more bullets when all you Gotta do is clean the barrel?

Not really a hardship is it?