Marksmanship Standards - follow up - what should the course of fire be for testing a Scottish stalker?

Why discriminate, any test should be the same as for an English stalker👿

DMQ1 originated as the Woodland Stalkers Competency Certificate, hence the 100 yard max test. It encourages accurate but slow shooting.

A bit of light hearted competition on a range day encourages people to stretch their limits, all good Continuing (Professional?) Development with less stress and bureaucracy than more testing🤠
 
I think the standard dmq type test ie:- prone 100m, sitting/kneeling 70m, standing 40, all shots to be in a 10cm circle is far too easy. Double the distances or reduce the circle to 5cm
I’ll give you a Lee Enfield with irons and we’ll see how you get on with that….😂
 
Why discriminate, any test should be the same as for an English stalker👿

DMQ1 originated as the Woodland Stalkers Competency Certificate, hence the 100 yard max test. It encourages accurate but slow shooting.

A bit of light hearted competition on a range day encourages people to stretch their limits, all good Continuing (Professional?) Development with less stress and bureaucracy than more testing🤠

In the early days of DMQ there was a shooting test for Highland stalkers where the prone target
was 150 yards .
Think it was dropped to standardise the test
 
Slightly off the OP but targets are always square on - would be useful in a full range day (practice rather than the actual test) to have some quartering or angled deer targets to help folk understand the shot location in a 3d sense.
 
I’ll give you a Lee Enfield with irons and we’ll see how you get on with that….😂
I am all about getting deer killed humanely and lots of them. So I like equipment that is a bit more capable. Like I've said before it's about assessing your own ability and that of your equipment or if it's a guest shooting, then the assessment has to be about their ability and of their equipment and shooting within the limits of this. I have nothing against someone wanting to go old school if that is their passion. Nor do I object to people who say such like "its all about getting as close as you can, after all it's called deer stalking". However, my employment requires that I cull a good few deer so I will use equipment to enable me to do it efficiently
 
Yet how did that collate to faced with a living breathing animal ? I have taken guys out who shot exteamly well on paper but where total wallys when it came to easy deer .
In fairness that thing switches , put a great stalker / hunter on paper and they can also go to bits for some reason
Worked both ways, some were fine, some weren't. After walking for 5 hours, uphill then lying in a burn with a piece of heather tickling your nose, trying to shoot something wasn't easy. And difficult to replicate. But that test was a good place to start.
 
For me it isn't about a test really, it is about ensuring people (everybody) gets the training which they then demonstrate their understanding of in a 'test'. Getting hung up on ranges and group sizes misses lots of other points.

A number of things occurred to me. More random thoughts rather than a coherent view but ...

There should be a development of all skills as people progress. DSC1 should ensure people can set up their rifle, handle it safely at all times and hit vital zones at reasonable ranges for shooters of their experience in a variety of scenarios i.e. woodland off sticks and prone up the hill. That way the shooter can be confident that if they are expanding their horizons they will have some idea what performance is expected and some confidence that they can achieve this. A basic simulated stalking element to the course where safe handling and competence in placing the shot would seem appropriate.

On DSC2 I think there should be a requirement to demonstrate competence at a different level. I would add a similar shooting test to DSC1 but adding in a couple of longer shots off sticks and prone to the maximum normal shooting ranges, and showing competence in making a follow up shot. There are simulated stalking 'ranges' popping up so there is an appetite among stalkers for more shooting, easy enough to do some sort of competence test on the back of it. We don't need to make it needlessly difficult, find ways to provide training.

At the moment DSC2 seems to be just about demonstrating competence in food hygiene and a basic bit of stalking. No consideration for a wider range of skills or competence in ethical game killing. Whack something at 50 yards, gralloch it and larger it correctly and in Scotland you are deemed fit and competent. I don't think so. If the need for 3 stalks has gone away there should be some provision to demonstrate wider skills. It is all very well rushing people through it, but what does it mean, what value has it if in fact they have limited competence?

When I did my DSC1 many years ago it would be the first time I was on anything like a range. I had not one clue as to what to do. Nowhere in Best Practice are there any guidelines/rules on how to handle a firearm safely in that situation. Stalking sure, but not on a range. Given that we all set up an informal range to practice zero then I would suggest there should be specific sections about how to do this safely, bore sighting in detail and firearms handling when on a 'range' ie nick the barrel elevation, empty chamber and safety catch elements from the NRA safe shooting system. We should be teaching people to handle firearms differently. Handling as per stalking is the exception not the acceptable standard in other situations. As stalkers we are too used to swinging a loaded gun around.

So I think the Best Practice guide on Firearms needs updating as does the question pack for DSC1. What I can or cannot do as a 17 year old in Northern Ireland is not a major risk to public safety so we can have a lot less arcane questions on firearms law and a lot more detailed questions on the practicalities on bore sighting and firearms handling on and off range, as this is fundamental knowledge.

I don't think there was much wrong with the shooting test I did all those years ago. I did the highland test. I think there should be one test and it should have shooting off sticks and prone to ranges we would expect a beginning stalker to be competent at. Dunno what that means on sticks as I never did it, but certainly 150m prone. I would have a bit which was on paper range style really to shoot a basic group to establish that the rifle is zero and the shooter is good to do the next bit. Key points here being rifle is NOT loaded until on the target and safety is not off until about to shoot. Shooter initiated NOT RSO commanded.

Then I would have a shot simulated stalk of say 3 targets, 2 off sticks and one prone. With practical accuracy requirements. The key point being safe handling of the firearm and correct usage of the safety catch. This is a better reflection of reality, better training and actually more fun. But we need to give people resources that they can easily find to understand how to set up and zero a new rifle and scope as well as safe use of a firearm in all situations ie range and the field.

That's a stalking perspective. Personally I would split the shooting instruction and test out from DSC and make it a requirement for all firearms applicants.

A bit like my other post, I am not terribly interested if people disagree with me. I don't accept that we should take people on trust (anymore) when it comes to the safe handling of firearms. These things are dangerous and people should have to demonstrate competence before being let loose with one. We have game hygiene certificates but for some reason firearms competence certificate are unthinkable.
 
I am all about getting deer killed humanely and lots of them. So I like equipment that is a bit more capable. Like I've said before it's about assessing your own ability and that of your equipment or if it's a guest shooting, then the assessment has to be about their ability and of their equipment and shooting within the limits of this. I have nothing against someone wanting to go old school if that is their passion. Nor do I object to people who say such like "its all about getting as close as you can, after all it's called deer stalking". However, my employment requires that I cull a good few deer so I will use equipment to enable me to do it efficiently
Understand, but if we apply these tests, it may well rule out some peoples passion, all because that can’t put a round into a 5cm circle at 100 yards….that won’t do much to help deer stalking as a hobby.

I should add - some people don’t want a telescopic sighted rifle and ballistics, they want an iron sighted stutzen and to get close to a deer before shooting - they may not have the best accuracy with a firearm for grouping but they know how to get close and enjoy that aspect of it.

We seem fall into the trap that says because we do something a certain way - others should conform to that and do it the same way, which is not the case…there is more than one way to skin a cat/shoot a deer.
 
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Yes practice makes perfect but where to practice? That is the question.
Our shooting organisations don't enough to help. There is a range day once in a blue moon.

A run through a simulated stalking course. There are a couple popping up. But we have to use them.

Join a club. Travel. It's a commitment to ethical game killing. You don't have to do it all the time, you can do a lot with dry fire to supplement a few range trips where you can test whether it really works.
 
Spot on. Living in Edinburgh I find this a major challenge and 99% of us face the same challenge.
Regards
JCS
This is very true if you do not have land you can use for "zero and practice" .. Many ranges do not allow out of standard position shooting but events like PRS might be worth looking into ?
if you have no fox and vermin permission on local farms who will allow you an hour or so here and there , no club membership, then there are some pay for the day ranges not ideal regards truly replicating shooting in forrest or on the hill but its something .
 
This is very true if you do not have land you can use for "zero and practice" .. Many ranges do not allow out of standard position shooting but events like PRS might be worth looking into ?
if you have no fox and vermin permission on local farms who will allow you an hour or so here and there , no club membership, then there are some pay for the day ranges not ideal regards truly replicating shooting in forrest or on the hill but its something .
To address the lack of practice opportunities and costs, I have started to put a lot more effort into .22 LR shooting and have shot at a couple of Gardners Guns Little SIS (PRS) matches and practice events.
Thanks
JCS
 
In the old days of the last and first part of this century there were two versions of the DSC1 test. An open hill which had bigger targets and went to 200 metres, and a shorter 100m one for woodland stalking.

The DSC 1 test is not bad at all. I would like to see less reliance on shooting aids though.

The German Jagshein test which all hunters have to pass each year is out to 100m, but does including shots off hand at 50m and at running boar.

We have an absolute dirth of ranges in the UK for practice. And those that are available on a pay and play basis are expensive. As in £30 plus for half an hour last time I looked.

In Germany there are plenty of public type ranges. And they are cheap to use. €2 for 15 minutes type level. And always busy. Here in the UK I have frequently heard - have to keep price high as nobody wants to use it type argument.

I think we also have a challenge with legalities etc. and still a real hangover from military were basically the main range authority and everyone has to shoot in details etc. and that Home Office Approved rifle clubs etc can operate etc.

In Germany hunters do practice quite a but. They have to pass their shooting test each year. And hunting and shooting is much more a centre of local society the Shutzenfest is often highlight of a village or towns social calender - imagine village fete cross with cricket match and clay pigeon shoot followed by a three day beer festival all rolled into one. Oh and the winner of the Schutzenfest holds a high place in the local community - particularly as he or she hosts and funds next year’s celebrations.
 
I think compulsory testing is not the wisest thing to moot, (I'm a turkey where do I vote for Xmas?) but I do think if you are paying for stalking you should have the opportunity to check zero at a reasonable range, even if using an estate rifle. This serves the purposes of checking nothing has moved on a travelled rifle, allowing the rifle to check the vagaries of the loaned rifle and the pro can at least get some idea about the renter. I don't actually think it takes long to make a judgement about how someone is going to behave, just looking at how they behave when handed a rifle or they take it out of the slip tells you a lot.

David.
 
I am all about getting deer killed humanely and lots of them. So I like equipment that is a bit more capable. Like I've said before it's about assessing your own ability and that of your equipment or if it's a guest shooting, then the assessment has to be about their ability and of their equipment and shooting within the limits of this. I have nothing against someone wanting to go old school if that is their passion. Nor do I object to people who say such like "its all about getting as close as you can, after all it's called deer stalking". However, my employment requires that I cull a good few deer so I will use equipment to enable me to do it efficiently
As was mine bur I.managed it without thermal, and range finders in the early years my scope was a 4x32 rifles were and still are
Wooden stocked ,stalking was sub 200 yards
Nice to have some of the stuff available these days but did I kill any less deer no I didn't.
 
For me it isn't about a test really, it is about ensuring people (everybody) gets the training which they then demonstrate their understanding of in a 'test'. Getting hung up on ranges and group sizes misses lots of other points.

A number of things occurred to me. More random thoughts rather than a coherent view but ...

There should be a development of all skills as people progress. DSC1 should ensure people can set up their rifle, handle it safely at all times and hit vital zones at reasonable ranges for shooters of their experience in a variety of scenarios i.e. woodland off sticks and prone up the hill. That way the shooter can be confident that if they are expanding their horizons they will have some idea what performance is expected and some confidence that they can achieve this. A basic simulated stalking element to the course where safe handling and competence in placing the shot would seem appropriate.

On DSC2 I think there should be a requirement to demonstrate competence at a different level. I would add a similar shooting test to DSC1 but adding in a couple of longer shots off sticks and prone to the maximum normal shooting ranges, and showing competence in making a follow up shot. There are simulated stalking 'ranges' popping up so there is an appetite among stalkers for more shooting, easy enough to do some sort of competence test on the back of it. We don't need to make it needlessly difficult, find ways to provide training.

At the moment DSC2 seems to be just about demonstrating competence in food hygiene and a basic bit of stalking. No consideration for a wider range of skills or competence in ethical game killing. Whack something at 50 yards, gralloch it and larger it correctly and in Scotland you are deemed fit and competent. I don't think so. If the need for 3 stalks has gone away there should be some provision to demonstrate wider skills. It is all very well rushing people through it, but what does it mean, what value has it if in fact they have limited competence?

When I did my DSC1 many years ago it would be the first time I was on anything like a range. I had not one clue as to what to do. Nowhere in Best Practice are there any guidelines/rules on how to handle a firearm safely in that situation. Stalking sure, but not on a range. Given that we all set up an informal range to practice zero then I would suggest there should be specific sections about how to do this safely, bore sighting in detail and firearms handling when on a 'range' ie nick the barrel elevation, empty chamber and safety catch elements from the NRA safe shooting system. We should be teaching people to handle firearms differently. Handling as per stalking is the exception not the acceptable standard in other situations. As stalkers we are too used to swinging a loaded gun around.

So I think the Best Practice guide on Firearms needs updating as does the question pack for DSC1. What I can or cannot do as a 17 year old in Northern Ireland is not a major risk to public safety so we can have a lot less arcane questions on firearms law and a lot more detailed questions on the practicalities on bore sighting and firearms handling on and off range, as this is fundamental knowledge.

I don't think there was much wrong with the shooting test I did all those years ago. I did the highland test. I think there should be one test and it should have shooting off sticks and prone to ranges we would expect a beginning stalker to be competent at. Dunno what that means on sticks as I never did it, but certainly 150m prone. I would have a bit which was on paper range style really to shoot a basic group to establish that the rifle is zero and the shooter is good to do the next bit. Key points here being rifle is NOT loaded until on the target and safety is not off until about to shoot. Shooter initiated NOT RSO commanded.

Then I would have a shot simulated stalk of say 3 targets, 2 off sticks and one prone. With practical accuracy requirements. The key point being safe handling of the firearm and correct usage of the safety catch. This is a better reflection of reality, better training and actually more fun. But we need to give people resources that they can easily find to understand how to set up and zero a new rifle and scope as well as safe use of a firearm in all situations ie range and the field.

That's a stalking perspective. Personally I would split the shooting instruction and test out from DSC and make it a requirement for all firearms applicants.

A bit like my other post, I am not terribly interested if people disagree with me. I don't accept that we should take people on trust (anymore) when it comes to the safe handling of firearms. These things are dangerous and people should have to demonstrate competence before being let loose with one. We have game hygiene certificates but for some reason firearms competence certificate are unthinkable.
DSC 1 has been somewhat changed over the years in a mainly higher std i think its fair to say . DSC2 has been massively downgraded in its requirements ! Why ? Because there wasn't enough customer demand and DMQ and the providers where not making the numbers and cash they required . Students in 2 now get to shoot just one fenced in animal - I mean i was really grilled twice when i did level2 3 beasts where the minimum to submit and no fenced in , get out the Landrover and shoot one . Planned stalk ? how does that really get called a stalk?
And you think we should add stuff ? Putting some stuff back in might be a start ! Though they did have a low intake and assessors where often pretty dire
At no stage is a deerstalker to be judged by how far away they can shoot , rather than how close they can get and all of us should shoot within our capabilities on the day in question ! The std for the lowland test should be 100 yards 4" placement and the highland test 200 yards with if i remember correctly 8" . The fact myself and others will fairly often double these ranges is totally meaningless as there are days when we will intentionally reduce them because of poor conditions faced . The range a stalker should shoot at should allow the fact of needing a second finishing shot if something goes wrong and that will happen even though its not expected
 
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