Marksmanship Standards - follow up - what should the course of fire be for testing a Scottish stalker?

[Bowland blades]

I think compulsory testing is not the wisest thing to moot, (I'm a turkey where do I vote for Xmas?) but I do think if you are paying for stalking you should have the opportunity to check zero at a reasonable range, even if using an estate rifle. This serves the purposes of checking nothing has moved on a travelled rifle, allowing the rifle to check the vagaries of the loaned rifle and the pro can at least get some idea about the renter. I don't actually think it takes long to make a judgement about how someone is going to behave, just looking at how they behave when handed a rifle or they take it out of the slip tells you a lot.

David.

You missed the fact that the stalker who is taking them out gets to see where he sets the limits range wise and IF they decide that client can go onto a beast at all . It doesn't show if they hold that standard when facing a beast but its an indicator .

 

[rem284]

Understand, but if we apply these tests, it may well rule out some peoples passion, all because that can’t put a round into a 5cm circle at 100 yards….that won’t do much to help deer stalking as a hobby.

I should add - some people don’t want a telescopic sighted rifle and ballistics, they want an iron sighted stutzen and to get close to a deer before shooting - they may not have the best accuracy with a firearm for grouping but they know how to get close and enjoy that aspect of it.

We seem fall into the trap that says because we do something a certain way - others should conform to that and do it the same way, which is not the case…there is more than one way to skin a cat/shoot a deer.

Yeh, but there are lots of cats to skin/deer to shoot and the numbers are increasing.

I would be against a mandatory test because it would have consequences for the people who like to get a few deer as you descibe. However, in reality there are already consequences for not have dmq level standards passed because forestry organisations and other land owners already require these standards to be met. So this limits the areas and opportunities to some who just want to use open sights, etc.

Again if the person kills deer humanely because they use equipment within its limitations then a dead deer is dead deer.

If a person is required to shoot a relatively large number of deer, though, why would they use equipment that would hinder them from doing so.

 

[308tikka]

Spot on. Living in Edinburgh I find this a major challenge and 99% of us face the same challenge.
Regards
JCS

Is Castlelaw not available via rifle clubs?

 

[gixer1]

In the old days of the last and first part of this century there were two versions of the DSC1 test. An open hill which had bigger targets and went to 200 metres, and a shorter 100m one for woodland stalking.

The DSC 1 test is not bad at all. I would like to see less reliance on shooting aids though.

The German Jagshein test which all hunters have to pass each year is out to 100m, but does including shots off hand at 50m and at running boar.

We have an absolute dirth of ranges in the UK for practice. And those that are available on a pay and play basis are expensive. As in £30 plus for half an hour last time I looked.

In Germany there are plenty of public type ranges. And they are cheap to use. €2 for 15 minutes type level. And always busy. Here in the UK I have frequently heard - have to keep price high as nobody wants to use it type argument.

I think we also have a challenge with legalities etc. and still a real hangover from military were basically the main range authority and everyone has to shoot in details etc. and that Home Office Approved rifle clubs etc can operate etc.

In Germany hunters do practice quite a but. They have to pass their shooting test each year. And hunting and shooting is much more a centre of local society the Shutzenfest is often highlight of a village or towns social calender - imagine village fete cross with cricket match and clay pigeon shoot followed by a three day beer festival all rolled into one. Oh and the winner of the Schutzenfest holds a high place in the local community - particularly as he or she hosts and funds next year’s celebrations.

In France they have the Chasses test…not doing them many favours when you look at the safety statistics….

 

[jcampbellsmith]

Is Castlelaw not available via rifle clubs?

I managed to get on once last year. I've been twice this year. It's fine for shooting prone, but as noted above, only prone shooting is allowed.
Regards
JCS

 

[gixer1]

Yeh, but there are lots of cats to skin/deer to shoot and the numbers are increasing.

I would be against a mandatory test because it would have consequences for the people who like to get a few deer as you descibe. However, in reality there are already consequences for not have dmq level standards passed because forestry organisations and other land owners already require these standards to be met. So this limits the areas and opportunities to some who just want to use open sights, etc.

Again if the person kills deer humanely because they use equipment within its limitations then a dead deer is dead deer.

If a person is required to shoot a relatively large number of deer, though, why would they use equipment that would hinder them from doing so.

Not all people need to shoot large numbers of deer or on forestry organisation land….some are simple farmers that shoot on their own land and want a deer once every few months.

My point is that it’s not always about a 100 yard shot, it depends on what the specific person is doing and which type of deer they are shooting - Do we really need to limit it any further?

By all means if you are a contract culler or someone doing it as a job there should be a test/competency assessment, in the same was a commercial driver must pass an additional test to his standard driving licence.

However, I know plenty of contractors that have killed tens of thousands of deer and never needed to stretch any shot much past 100-150 yards, can they shoot cloverleaf groups? …no, but they certainly know how to put holes in deer and get them on the ground.

No person should be heading out to shoot at live animals without some practice and someone mentoring or giving them pointers, but I’m not sure there needs to be compulsory tests. Anyone I have taken out needs to put bullets in a target off sticks usually, most understand why this is needed and I think the cases of people going out themselves having just acquired an FAC and rifle would be rare…not unheard of, but rare - most want a bit of support when starting out and I would hate to alienate people looking to get into the sport by saying you need to hit a 5cm circle at 100m before we can do anything….usually it’s a process…air rifle or rimfire on targets, shoot some rabbits, try a centrefire, shoot some targets , go foxing, shoot a deer.

Many rifles wouldn’t have held a 5cm group if you go back a bit further….and anyone that remembers the black circle of doom thread will know that many people are great at suggesting what they can do, but in reality it depends on the day….

Anyone who shoots enough will miss, or worse, wound and lose a deer…it’s part of the process and is usually a learning point, anyone that hasn’t probably hasn’t shot that many deer.

Regards,
Gixer

 

[LuckyEddie]

Minimum of 3 shots in the kill zone on your preferred species at 50m standing, 100m sitting or kneeling and 200m prone (with sticks if you use them)

You’re not out at Bisley in a competition trying to out shoot anybody.
You’re out in the field trying to ensure the least suffering to your chosen beast

 

[Buchan]

Spot on. Living in Edinburgh I find this a major challenge and 99% of us face the same challenge.
Regards
JCS

Which is why your local DBS offers marksmanship training on range days (hopefully on a regular basis). In the NW we try to do it 4 or 5 times in the summer.

 

[Buchan]

It's a good question. And the old DSC1 was reasonable - 3 prine at 100 into the 4" target, then 2 prone to deer, 2 70 stand or sit, 2 at 40.
I'd change that a 5 shot group at 100 into the target then teh rest of the DSC1. I'd also add in a 150-200 grouping.

 

[rem284]

In the old days of the last and first part of this century there were two versions of the DSC1 test. An open hill which had bigger targets and went to 200 metres, and a shorter 100m one for woodland stalking.

The DSC 1 test is not bad at all. I would like to see less reliance on shooting aids though.

The German Jagshein test which all hunters have to pass each year is out to 100m, but does including shots off hand at 50m and at running boar.

We have an absolute dirth of ranges in the UK for practice. And those that are available on a pay and play basis are expensive. As in £30 plus for half an hour last time I looked.

In Germany there are plenty of public type ranges. And they are cheap to use. €2 for 15 minutes type level. And always busy. Here in the UK I have frequently heard - have to keep price high as nobody wants to use it type argument.

I think we also have a challenge with legalities etc. and still a real hangover from military were basically the main range authority and everyone has to shoot in details etc. and that Home Office Approved rifle clubs etc can operate etc.

In Germany hunters do practice quite a but. They have to pass their shooting test each year. And hunting and shooting is much more a centre of local society the Shutzenfest is often highlight of a village or towns social calender - imagine village fete cross with cricket match and clay pigeon shoot followed by a three day beer festival all rolled into one. Oh and the winner of the Schutzenfest holds a high place in the local community - particularly as he or she hosts and funds next year’s celebrations.

Not all people need to shoot large numbers of deer or on forestry organisation land….some are simple farmers that shoot on their own land and want a deer once every few months.

My point is that it’s not always about a 100 yard shot, it depends on what the specific person is doing and which type of deer they are shooting - Do we really need to limit it any further?

By all means if you are a contract culler or someone doing it as a job there should be a test/competency assessment, in the same was a commercial driver must pass an additional test to his standard driving licence.

However, I know plenty of contractors that have killed tens of thousands of deer and never needed to stretch any shot much past 100-150 yards, can they shoot cloverleaf groups? …no, but they certainly know how to put holes in deer and get them on the ground.

No person should be heading out to shoot at live animals without some practice and someone mentoring or giving them pointers, but I’m not sure there needs to be compulsory tests. Anyone I have taken out needs to put bullets in a target off sticks usually, most understand why this is needed and I think the cases of people going out themselves having just acquired an FAC and rifle would be rare…not unheard of, but rare - most want a bit of support when starting out and I would hate to alienate people looking to get into the sport by saying you need to hit a 5cm circle at 100m before we can do anything….usually it’s a process…air rifle or rimfire on targets, shoot some rabbits, try a centrefire, shoot some targets , go foxing, shoot a deer.

Many rifles wouldn’t have held a 5cm group if you go back a bit further….and anyone that remembers the black circle of doom thread will know that many people are great at suggesting what they can do, but in reality it depends on the day….

Anyone who shoots enough will miss, or worse, wound and lose a deer…it’s part of the process and is usually a learning point, anyone that hasn’t probably hasn’t shot that many deer.

Regards,
Gixer

I agree with most, if not all of your points. I bet not many contractors will go to work though using open sights and Lee Enfield. They might want to use one to get the odd recreational deer though

 

[Andrewslater]

no mandatory requirement necessary. Thnks

 

[gixer1]

It's a good question. And the old DSC1 was reasonable - 3 prine at 100 into the 4" target, then 2 prone to deer, 2 70 stand or sit, 2 at 40.
I'd change that a 5 shot group at 100 into the target then teh rest of the DSC1. I'd also add in a 150-200 grouping.

Can I ask why? What percentage of the deer you shoot do you think are +100 yards vs -100 yards?

Regards,
Gixer

 

[sh1kar]

Are you suggesting then that the test should be taken on a regular basis? Say every 2 years?
Regards
JCs

When I stalked FC ground a few years back we had to do a test shoot every year which we and Ranger signed and it went on file. It was the usual DSC test. 3 3 and 3

 

[Island]

Can I ask why? What percentage of the deer you shoot do you think are +100 yards vs -100 yards?

Regards,
Gixer

I would also like to see the figures on how many deer are killed annually with a "good group", whether that is 3 or 5 shots....

 

[Buchan]

Can I ask why? What percentage of the deer you shoot do you think are +100 yards vs -100 yards?

Regards,
Gixer

5-shot comes from the Bradley Bourner marksmaship training we ran in NW BDS and the general principle that the bigger the sample size, the more reliable the result
Most of the deer I shoot (open hill and plantation clearfell) are 150+. A reecnt clearfell area must be 800m across, so anything in teh middle is a challenge to get to. We also need to be able to shoot at 200 for the animal that moves that distance and may need a followup shot.

 

[gixer1]

5-shot comes from the Bradley Bourner marksmaship training we ran in NW BDS and the general principle that the bigger the sample size, the more reliable the result
Most of the deer I shoot (open hill and plantation clearfell) are 150+. A reecnt clearfell area must be 800m across, so anything in teh middle is a challenge to get to. We also need to be able to shoot at 200 for the animal that moves that distance and may need a followup shot.

I guess that depends where the beast stops…

And so your requirements for a test are derived from your shooting scenario - which is fine, however I would wager most shots taken on roe deer are well under 150m….and many on reds too…

Again, this is where different scenarios come into effect.

Regards,
Gixer

 

[rem284]

I think as well as "shooting test or not or standards" this discussion seems to be highlighting safe practices, practical ability of setting up equipment and more. I think a lot of people including myself can sometimes take as granted that "everyone knows all that because I do". It may well not be the case for various reasons

I am lucky that I was introduced in to shooting at a very young age but this has got me thinking about people who have came into this later and life and perhaps haven't seen nor heard how to do all the practical and theoretical aspects that some people including myself take for granted that it's known and understood when it might just not be.

A while ago it became apparent that someone used to drive around shooting rabbits from a vehicle with a .22lr in the passenger footwell with a round in the chamber with the safety on. I suggested it wasn't a safe practice. I do think the penny dropped when I pointed it out

Another time someone had mounted their scope on the rifle but with the windage turret on the top and elevation turret on the left side.

 

[Bo Diddley]

I am somewhat bemused by the obsession with "testing", as I've reached the age of 57 and never given it a thought, competence in handling a firearm and killing an animal is important to me.
I see people that shoot regularly that could do with some advice/guidance, mostly during the game shooting season admittedly, I would love to tell some that would be better off taking up golf.

I started off with an air rifle when I was far too young to have one, then progress to shotguns when I was still at high school ( my headmaster was the counter signatory on my application ) then onto powder burners when I was 19, and slowly learning the craft from my peers around me, I'd like to think I'm ultra-safe and a decent shot....
Maybe I need to take a test after all just to find out

 

[gixer1]

Another time someone had mounted their scope on the rifle but with the windage turret on the top and elevation turret on the left side.

Technically it would still function…. one click up is one click usually…

 

[rem284]

Technically it would still function…. one click up is one click usually…

Mmm! I did wonder but would "up" be left or right!