Marksmanship Standards - follow up - what should the course of fire be for testing a Scottish stalker?

[long_range_rob]

20 star jumps, 10 press ups then the DSC1 test would make it more realistic. I for one shoot very differently when the targets covered in hair and has a pulse. On a range I’m chilled and it’s a technical exercise.

I agree that the DSC2 shouldn’t have been dumbed down, I’ve seen people with DSC2 who can’t really gralloch due to lack of experience.

 

[Buchan]

20 star jumps, 10 press ups then the DSC1 test would make it more realistic. I for one shoot very differently when the targets covered in hair and has a pulse. On a range I’m chilled and it’s a technical exercise.

I agree that the DSC2 shouldn’t have been dumbed down, I’ve seen people with DSC2 who can’t really gralloch due to lack of experience.

Ha! I'd love to put on a course of fire at one of our ranges - walk to the firing point carrying one's gear, take a shot at the target within 10s of arriving! However, range safety is then a challenge

 

[Ronin]

Last two posts are exactly what the Kraft test replicates in essence

One shot on paper change position , nee position shoot same target. Change position and shoot same target and so forth for twelve shots

Anyone shooting 2 Moa would be considered exceptional

4 Moa ans upwards would be a “norm” ans show where weak areas are if the target is marked per position and fall of shot

Nothing replicates killing and nerves are going to play a factor in taking any killing shot

But one cannot replicate that with a target painted on a living creature

Paper doesn’t lie

You could indice stress at the firing point quite easily but many would suggest that was unfair for a competency based test

 

[Alistair]

@bogtrotter

The course of fire is relevant to all types of stalking anywhere in Britain.

The 300yd option gives a true understanding of what a longer shot entails, how difficult it is and how bad at it you are. Might incentiise people to decline that 250yd shot if offered that they know from past experience that they're not good for.

In extremis and a follow up shot at a longer range is needed on a wounded beast, at least you have some experience of hold over point to do the best job you can in that situation.

 

[DavyG]

I agree that the DSC2 shouldn’t have been dumbed down, I’ve seen people with DSC2 who can’t really gralloch due to lack of experience.

The reason behind this (IMHO) was to make it more affordable to the “stalker”. More holders of DSC1 are likely to book their next level.
Just another money making exercise by DMQ.
DG

 

[bogtrotter]

@bogtrotter

The course of fire is relevant to all types of stalking anywhere in Britain.

The 300yd option gives a true understanding of what a longer shot entails, how difficult it is and how bad at it you are. Might incentiise people to decline that 250yd shot if offered that they know from past experience that they're not good for.

In extremis and a follow up shot at a longer range is needed on a wounded beast, at least you have some experience of hold over point to do the best job you can in that situation.

Yes and that much I agree with its the use of sticks never seen on the hill and sitting and kneeling shots hardly ever if at all that I found of little use to a Highland stalker.

 

[Edinburgh Rifles]

If only there was a real world simulated stalking course with appropriate targets available in Scotland…

Oh wait…

 

[Rodgekeeper]

Mandatory tests in the UK are hard to administer as we don't have the systems in place like other countries like the USA for example with their Hunters Education course and test.
They have state run courses and Game and Fish departments to back up the administration process.
The UK would undoubtedly contract these tests out and end up with a multitude of interpretations with the goal on making the company money over the delivered product.

 

[Ratwhiskers]

Paper doesn’t hold back the truth

Practice practice practice irrespective of ability or status

Put a Kraft target at 100 mtrs and ask the rifleman to place one shot from standing kneeling, seated and prone in three repetitions into that target

It’s a great leveller

Beware the person that says I don’t have to practice and “everything I shoot at dies”

There should be a competency test in my own opinion ,,,, the format, construction and recording of this is another matter

It isn’t the first time this has been raised and probably not the last either

Probably unpopular but anything to raise the standards of marksmanship and saftey eh

l agree Andy

Practice, practice, practice..... To hell with the current ammo costs!!

l know of several who claim to shoot this way and that (winning long range comps and such), and yet fuss and fluff their way through a simple DCS1 range test, l wouldn't like to come across them in a stalking aspect, not one bit!
l also know of some aging stalkers who can no longer belly crawl through 60' of brash and slide silth-like over a drystone wall, but that does not make them lesser mortals, they simply take the shots they can and walk away from others if they know actions of their youth are now not open to them.

l would just rather see such training and practice not turn into the expensive "Pocket Liner" for associations and groups as l mentioned.
l have also seen some shoots turned into "Arms Races" by some, determined to be the best and win any prizes at the end, personally that sort of thing just turns me off cold, and some wondered why l stopped shooting at our own event, until l pointed out that some years ago l had my name on all three shields in one year, so l stepped aside. Now l just practice privately on ground l have access to as often as l can, that is until the likes of Warcop opens up to us again, and then l'll be the daft beggar on the end shooting off of sticks and any contorted position l can get my knees into, just to keep my eye in.

 

[Ronin]

l agree Andy

Practice, practice, practice..... To hell with the current ammo costs!!

l know of several who claim to shoot this way and that (winning long range comps and such), and yet fuss and fluff their way through a simple DCS1 range test, l wouldn't like to come across them in a stalking aspect, not one bit!
l also know of some aging stalkers who can no longer belly crawl through 60' of brash and slide silth-like over a drystone wall, but that does not make them lesser mortals, they simply take the shots they can and walk away from others if they know actions of their youth are now not open to them.

l would just rather see such training and practice not turn into the expensive "Pocket Liner" for associations and groups as l mentioned.
l have also seen some shoots turned into "Arms Races" by some, determined to be the best and win any prizes at the end, personally that sort of thing just turns me off cold, and some wondered why l stopped shooting at our own event, until l pointed out that some years ago l had my name on all three shields in one year, so l stepped aside. Now l just practice privately on ground l have access to as often as l can, that is until the likes of Warcop opens up to us again, and then l'll be the daft beggar on the end shooting off of sticks and any contorted position l can get my knees into, just to keep my eye in.

Amen to that brother

You can very effectively practice with just a few rounds and dry fire in bettween

So long as you concentrate on fundamentals and observe reticle movement pre, during and post “shot” if firing dry

 

[Cumbrian 1]

I’m off to Africa in a week and I’ve been practicing offhand with the .450 NE, even more so because I’ve had a red dot sight installed. Shooting off a bench would have been pointless or using sticks as this won’t recreate the likely shooting situation.

Many rounds later I’m confident off hand I can hit a fist shaped rock out to 100 yds (the group is a right and left at 50yds fired in rapid succession l)

 

[rem284]

Amen to that brother

You can very effectively practice with just a few rounds and dry fire in bettween

So long as you concentrate on fundamentals and observe reticle movement pre, during and post “shot” if firing dry

Probably the best advice so far

 

[griff]

Was under the impression that FLS contractor holders were responsible for testing their own sub-contractors now...

Under WRM supervision..

 

[sikadog]

The last FCS test I shot.
I left home within plenty of time 3.5 hrs to D&G I traveled as far as Preston when the M6 was closed it eventually took 6hrs 40mins after many phone calls to delay the test, I arrived absolutely drained. The ranger was waiting, I said can I have half an hour to get my head straight. No he said I am off shift in 45 mins if you don't do it now I can't do it for 2 days.
So I shot it and managed to shoot a good group.
But I wouldn't want to do it again.

 

[Siggy]

So...Don't think a deer target should be used - the DSC 1 target zone doesn't really correspond with the pinning the shoulders shot sometimes recommended with non-toxic, and in real life the kill zone isn't round anyway. The test should be putting a bullet close to a fixed point.

Course of fire:
200 metres prone
100 metres sticks
10/20 metres dispatch shot.

size of target open to discussion.

While anecdotally I understand a lot of culling is done beyond 200 metres the problem is, if you start going out too far, how do you standardise for wind drift between tests - one person might be taking the test in a hoolie and another in a flat calm.

 

[Kalahari]

So...Don't think a deer target should be used - the DSC 1 target zone doesn't really correspond with the pinning the shoulders shot sometimes recommended with non-toxic, and in real life the kill zone isn't round anyway. The test should be putting a bullet close to a fixed point.

Course of fire:
200 metres prone
100 metres sticks
10/20 metres dispatch shot.

size of target open to discussion.

While anecdotally I understand a lot of culling is done beyond 200 metres the problem is, if you start going out too far, how do you standardise for wind drift between tests - one person might be taking the test in a hoolie and another in a flat calm.

@VSS and I can testify to the hoolie bit in our test. It was also sleeting and cold enough to freeze my coat to the ground! We mamaged to pass but I wonder how I managed it,

David.