Youtube content: and the deer ran on - again?

[tikkathreebarrels]

I struggle to write this but for me there's an elephant in the room.

I enjoy UK-generated youtube hunting content but it pains me to see deer run on when shot. Is it always this way with copper / non-lead ammunition 'cos honestly I don't like it, I don't like to see it, I don't see the need for it and I don't think that the mindset of "copper bullet, only ran on twenty yards" does us any favours at all.

I'm still shooting 6mm lead bullets and, unless I've messed up, nothing runs on.

 

[deerstalker.308]

Plenty of things run short distances post shot of any makeup unless spinal or head. Lead or non lead.

 

[NickJ]

They don’t run any further shot with copper, plenty of evidence of that now.

They do run when shot with lead, plenty of evidence of that. If is the majority reaction to a heart lung shot unless the shoulder is hit.

They are ‘dead on their feet’ when they run so what’s the issue?

 

[Mungo]

I struggle to write this but for me there's an elephant in the room.

I enjoy UK-generated youtube hunting content but it pains me to see deer run on when shot. Is it always this way with copper / non-lead ammunition 'cos honestly I don't like it, I don't like to see it, I don't see the need for it and I don't think that the mindset of "copper bullet, only ran on twenty yards" does us any favours at all.

I'm still shooting 6mm lead bullets and, unless I've messed up, nothing runs on.

You must only head shoot…

Chest shot deer run.

I’ve seen small roe deer chest hit with ballistic tipped (lead) bullets from a 30-06 run.

 

[@theroedeerguy]

Chest shot deer run regardless of what projectile material has been used.

They’re essentially dead on their feet and it’s not an indication of any suffering or error on the stalker’s part.

 

[Mike L]

I struggle to write this but for me there's an elephant in the room.

I enjoy UK-generated youtube hunting content but it pains me to see deer run on when shot. Is it always this way with copper / non-lead ammunition 'cos honestly I don't like it, I don't like to see it, I don't see the need for it and I don't think that the mindset of "copper bullet, only ran on twenty yards" does us any favours at all.

I'm still shooting 6mm lead bullets and, unless I've messed up, nothing runs on.

Wrong information

 

[mike308]

I have been using copper for a few years now and get no more runners than I did with lead. A heart shot deer will sometimes run no matter what it is shot with.

 

[Jon P]

I have been shooting non toxic fox ammo for a bit now- shot around 30 plus deer with them. Admittedly majority head shot, but not having anything really running on, to the point the dog is getting really FK off.

Prior to that I was using lead federal powershok, again no real issues with runners but the dog was getting a bit more work.

Maybe I am trying harder with the non toxic as it has a reputation of not expanding. But I happy to stay with non toxic as I feed some of the venison to the Harris hawk and dogs.

 

[Covert]

I struggle to write this but for me there's an elephant in the room.

I enjoy UK-generated youtube hunting content but it pains me to see deer run on when shot. Is it always this way with copper / non-lead ammunition 'cos honestly I don't like it, I don't like to see it, I don't see the need for it and I don't think that the mindset of "copper bullet, only ran on twenty yards" does us any favours at all.

I'm still shooting 6mm lead bullets and, unless I've messed up, nothing runs on.

Myself and many others have been doing it wrong for a very long time then

 

[deerstalker.308]

Last year I shot 31 lowland reds on my ground, ranging from 70-160kg, all shot with 136gr lead free .308 ammunition, not one of them ran more than with lead, some flopped on the spot due to head or spinal shots most that were chest shot went 20-50m, all died rapidly from massive loss of blood pressure no different than any lead round. I’ve watched a roe buck shot by a friend (with lead) run 200m with a gaping wound spurting claret the whole way, every deer is different, some get a burst of adrenaline and run until empty, others give up the ghost almost instantly. If you want instant death you must only ever be head shooting, and we know that when those shots go slightly wrong the consequences are far far worse.

 

[slider]

unless you are head shooting deer will run, even if the heart is totally destroyed. I have no more runners with copper than I did with lead

 

[Island]

I struggle to write this but for me there's an elephant in the room.

I enjoy UK-generated youtube hunting content but it pains me to see deer run on when shot. Is it always this way with copper / non-lead ammunition 'cos honestly I don't like it, I don't like to see it, I don't see the need for it and I don't think that the mindset of "copper bullet, only ran on twenty yards" does us any favours at all.

I'm still shooting 6mm lead bullets and, unless I've messed up, nothing runs on.

With respect, the elephant is not in the room it is only in your own mind.

Chest shot deer run on in a large number of cases. It is a normal physiological response unless the CNS is disrupted or shoulders smashed (i.e. HILAR or high-chest shot).

The make up of the bullet, whether traditional lead-core or recent mono-metal alternatives, make precisely no difference whatsoever.

 

[Selous]

I get less runners with copper bullets than I did with lead. Roe very seldom take a step

 

[VSS]

With respect, the elephant is not in the room it is only in your own mind.

Chest shot deer run on in a large number of cases. It is a normal physiological response unless the CNS is disrupted or shoulders smashed (i.e. HILAR or high-chest shot).

The make up of the bullet, whether traditional lead-core or recent mono-metal alternatives, make precisely no difference whatsoever.

Agree with this 100% ^^^
However, with respect to the OP, I have also watched stuff on YouTube where the deer did run far too far after the shot, and clearly wasn't "dead on it's feet", yet the shot was deemed to be good and the deer did (eventually) keel over.
There is a very real risk that we become "desensitised", to the extent that we consider what are actually poor shots to be the acceptable norm, and explain it away with comments such as "dead on it's feet". How the feck do you know it's dead, really, until you've put your hand on it?

 

[Covert]

Agree with this 100% ^^^
However, with respect to the OP, I have also watched stuff on YouTube where the deer did run far too far after the shot, and clearly wasn't "dead on it's feet", yet the shot was deemed to be good and the deer did (eventually) keel over.
There is a very real risk that we become "desensitised", to the extent that we consider what are actually poor shots to be the acceptable norm, and explain it away with comments such as "dead on it's feet". How the feck do you know it's dead, really, until you've put your hand on it?

I think the real danger here is that the head shot is deemed to be the norm. Seems to be a small but growing culture of “I am a better shot than you”. Nobody is that good all of the time
Head shooting is ok in a park situation , high shoulder /hilar shots have there place but there is a good reason why every best practice training guide teaches a chest shot.

 

[Jon P]

Agree with this 100% ^^^
However, with respect to the OP, I have also watched stuff on YouTube where the deer did run far too far after the shot, and clearly wasn't "dead on it's feet", yet the shot was deemed to be good and the deer did (eventually) keel over.
There is a very real risk that we become "desensitised", to the extent that we consider what are actually poor shots to be the acceptable norm, and explain it away with comments such as "dead on it's feet". How the feck do you know it's dead, really, until you've put your hand on it?

I would say it is dead on its legs when you can see it running away and blood is coming out of the chest like an open tap- , blood pressure has dropped that fast it is running on instinct,

If you shoot and loose view immediately I would agree you can’t call it dead on its legs,

 

[Hunter300]

They don’t run any further shot with copper, plenty of evidence of that now.

They do run when shot with lead, plenty of evidence of that. If is the majority reaction to a heart lung shot unless the shoulder is hit.

They are ‘dead on their feet’ when they run so what’s the issue?

If a Munty run after a shot you have an caliber issue, try a 50cal

 

[Island]

Agree with this 100% ^^^
However, with respect to the OP, I have also watched stuff on YouTube where the deer did run far too far after the shot, and clearly wasn't "dead on it's feet", yet the shot was deemed to be good and the deer did (eventually) keel over.
There is a very real risk that we become "desensitised", to the extent that we consider what are actually poor shots to be the acceptable norm, and explain it away with comments such as "dead on it's feet". How the feck do you know it's dead, really, until you've put your hand on it?

I never particularly liked the phrase "dead on it's feet" to be honest, unless the brain has been destroyed then the animal is more accurately "dying on it's feet", waiting for the catastrophic drop in blood pressure and subsequent starvation of oxygen to the brain that will render it "dead". Semantics really, but I am strange that way...

Anyhoo, I agree with your point. One must be careful to differentiate between the sympathetic autonomic response of a properly shot animal and the flight response of a badly shot one.

One of them is entirely unavoidable, the other entirely avoidable.

 

[NickJ]

The 'issue' could be - don't put anything on YouTube, or any social media platform that might upset anyone ignorant of the facts

 

[Buchan]

I struggle to write this but for me there's an elephant in the room.

I enjoy UK-generated youtube hunting content but it pains me to see deer run on when shot. Is it always this way with copper / non-lead ammunition 'cos honestly I don't like it, I don't like to see it, I don't see the need for it and I don't think that the mindset of "copper bullet, only ran on twenty yards" does us any favours at all.

I'm still shooting 6mm lead bullets and, unless I've messed up, nothing runs on.

As others have said, "running on" isn't necessarily a problem. There is enough oxygen in the muscle and enough activity in the brain to allow a deer to run until the brain is starved and the deer falls. There is evidence from humans that the hole doesn't immediately hurt, so death within 30s is acceptable.