Ineos Grenadier halts production

https://Immersive-optics.com/
Interesting discussion. I was initially excited about the Inios as new solid axle 4x4s are thin on the ground. I’ve worked in the agricultural industry in Australia for 15 years including maintaining machinery especially 4x4s which means I’ve spent a lot of time around 70 and 40 series Landcruisers. I’ve also witnessed what a steady diet of very poor roads does to a large range IFS vehicles. I can categorically state IFS is far less durable than solid axles, not to mention its inferiority off road - yes IFS with diff locks and or traction control can go a long way but like for like a solid axle will go further.

The Inios was a welcome change from the current shift to more luxurious less robust more road focused 4x4. Land Rover announcing yet another luxurious IFS wagon that for all I can tell fills exactly the same role as all its other made-in-India wagons with the same name as its venerable old solid axle cab chassis model is a perverse joke.

What really lets the Inios down for me (last year I managed to find a company 2022 demo model VDJ79) is the lack of a manual box, just like with the (now downgraded to IFS) G wagon. In these rugged conditions a manual is very important with its increased strength, increased tolerance of bad conditions (heat, dust, water), easier maintenance, better engine braking, can roll start (I’ve roll started v8 manual cruisers and other newer CRD diesels many times - nothing is bent or harmed, it’s easy and reliable you just need more than about 4v to keep the ignition on), can lock the crank for maintenance, can be towed, don’t need a trans cooler, takes the same oil as the rest of the drive train, doesn’t complicate engine diagnostics, and allows more direct driver control as it stays in the gear you select.

However, given the 200 and 300 cruisers are also auto only - the Inios is still a good option. Would be good if they brought out a single cab. Currently you get a new V8 manual 70 series (VDJ79 - updated last year, they are now in the light truck category to get round safety and emission restrictions) if you ordered one prior (they stopped taking orders 3 years ago as they couldn’t keep up with demand and performed factory extensions in Japan) or if you find a dealer stock vehicle. However you can only order a 4cyl auto, although 4cyl manuals will be brought back in later this year. I know the manual box intimately - it’s essentially the same box introduced in the 80 series in 1990, a massive very overbuilt transmission with full pressure lube, no auto can touch it for reliability and longevity.

Coils are great, but leaf does have advantages too - much simpler (no link arms with numerous bushes that wear out), added dampening and the biggest factor is the load is shared over two points so less stress on the chassis.

I understand autos have some preferred driving characteristics, however if being relied on I think a manual is a safer choice - many things can stop an auto that won’t stop a manual. In a SHTF situation give me a manual VDJ76 (70 series wagon) over something with an auto any day.

My wagon is a 105 Landcruiser - essentially an 80 series with a 100 series body, IMO the best wagon that will ever be built. I did however put a 1HD-FTE in it as the 1HZ NA diesel was slow and thirsty.

BTW an FJ cruiser is a SWB prado (Colorado to you Brits) with a retro styled body fitted, nothing HD about them
 
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Just had an email from them launching the new Commercial that qualifies for VAT reclaim. Sadly only 2 seater and the permanently disabled chases mounts prevent retrofitting rear seats. Its a shame it isn't like the old Defender Utility Wagon.
 
I was on the email interest list of the Grenadier. Got an email from the yesterday re the Commercial version.

This a 2 seat van - just the front seats, a flat full length floor and no provision for rear seats. Still five doors with the rear doors having aluminium panels instead of glass.

Price on Ineos website is £51k plus VAT. I can see this attracting quite a bit of attention from those who want a utility vehicle.

It will be a fantastic base vehicle for those wanting an over land tyoe vehicle similar to the Land Cruiser Troop Carrier, especially in markets where the troop carrier is not available.

Full length roof conversions are now available for the Grenadier giving a pop up roof and full standing head room inside.

Also looking at 2nd hand market, £50k now gets you an 18 month old with 20,000 miles on the clock. I suspect give it another year or two those will be in the £20 to £30k (in todays money) bracket with 40 to 60k on the clock. That will be affordable for those of us who want a good vehicle to go on adventures in. Certainly having looked at videos of those who have had them fir a goid while they do seem to be a very capable vehicle.
 
enfieldspares said:
I actually, once upon a time, did have a car with a starting handle and the corresponding hole in the front bumper, the radiator mounted to allow the handle to pass, the "boss" on the front of the engine. Used to drive over the field and track near my pond to carry stuff about. I was maybe age fourteen at the time. So 1971?

And yes it did work, as it came like that, all set up, from the factory. And I used it quite often..thumb out...as the vehicle wouldn't otherwise be used for weeks so the battery often went near flat. It was an early no longer roadworthy Morris Traveller. The later made ones still had the hole in the front bumper but they changed the position of the radiator so no longer could you do it. And no "boss" on the engine.

So my 2p worth would be always better to have a thing (or the ability to do that thing) and not need it than to need it and not have it. Starting handles maybe old tech but even so you could start the vehicle stationary on your own if you had neither a convenient hill nor a convenient length of roadway.

Bump starting over single handed over either cinder track (there's not enough grip on the tyres when you let the clutch out) or ridge and furrow fields isn't practical or possible. A starting handle becomes a Godsend then.
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Likewise quads that have a pull/kick start as well as electronic
 
Rake Aboot said:
It has the same drivetrain ( engine , gearbox)as my X5 which is the quickest standard motor I’ve ever owned .
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Except:
  1. Ineos down-tuned the BMW turbocharged 3.0-liter inline six-cylinder engine from 375bhp in the BMW 750i to 285bhp in the Grenadier, which makes it MUCH slower than Discovery / G-Wagon / Jeep, taking over 9s to get to 60mph.
  2. Ineos added a ton of annoying alarms that one cannot turn off without going through several menus every time one starts the beast, adding minutes to the 0-60.
  3. Ineos were so sloppy with the trim that it looks like a £20K car assembly operation instead of the £80k it is, with glue poking out and exposed paint.
  4. Then "the great German team that did the G-Wagon chassis" sabotaged the British/Singaporean Grenadier by neglecting to put in any caster to the front wheels so it does not return to driving straight after a bend - yes, the same team that geared the steering so it takes a full 4 turns to go from lock to lock.
  5. I could go on .. a dozen things needing fixing.
All run by management who went to sleep/retired/gave-up after the first one was sold, instead of being hyper-alert to detect any problem with a new product and fix it: result is instead of follow-on sales and happy clients, they end up with a queue of people like me waiting for the next version which has these annoying things sorted, but no current sales to pay for the improvements. The Grenadier could have been a great car, it could have become a classic, and still could if the management got a kick up the pants to do their job. There are loads of Landrover drivers who want to buy something more reliable but won't get a Toyota.

The A1 near Morpeth has cameras to detect any commercial vehicle/utility driven on the 70mph dual carriage way above 60mph, to fine the driver: commercial vehicle rating has been turned into a tax cow. Don't ask how I know this. 3 points and a fine, is then multiplied 10x by the next insurance renewal. A good reason NOT to buy the utility 5 door variant.

Engineers who stalk know never to buy the first version of a new product, but it seems with Ineos they will wait until doomsday for the fixed version.
 
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AlexD said:
Except:
  1. Ineos down-tuned the BMW turbocharged 3.0-liter inline six-cylinder engine from 375bhp in the BMW 750i to 285bhp in the Grenadier, which makes it MUCH slower than Discovery / G-Wagon / Jeep, taking over 9s to get to 60mph.
  2. Ineos added a ton of annoying alarms that one cannot turn off without going through several menus every time one starts the beast, adding minutes to the 0-60.
  3. Ineos were so sloppy with the trim that it looks like a £20K car assembly operation instead of the £80k it is, with glue poking out and exposed paint.
  4. Then "the great German team that did the G-Wagon chassis" sabotaged the British/Singaporean Grenadier by neglecting to put in any caster to the front wheels so it does not return to driving straight after a bend - yes, the same team that geared the steering so it takes a full 4 turns to go from lock to lock.
  5. I could go on .. a dozen things needing fixing.
All run by management who went to sleep/retired/gave-up after the first one was sold, instead of being hyper-alert to detect any problem with a new product and fix it: result is instead of follow-on sales and happy clients, they end up with a queue of people like me waiting for the next version which has these annoying things sorted, but no current sales to pay for the improvements. The Grenadier could have been a great car, it could have become a classic, and still could if the management got a kick up the pants to do their job. There are loads of Landrover drivers who want to buy something more reliable but won't get a Toyota.

The A1 near Morpeth has cameras to detect any commercial vehicle/utility driven on the 70mph dual carriage way above 60mph, to fine the driver: commercial vehicle rating has been turned into a tax cow. Don't ask how I know this. 3 points and a fine, is then multiplied 10x by the next insurance renewal. A good reason NOT to buy the utility 5 door variant.

Engineers who stalk know never to buy the first version of a new product, but it seems with Ineos they will wait until doomsday for the fixed version.
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how long have you had one for?
 
artschool said:
how long have you had one for?
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I put a deposit down on a Grenadier Trailmaster with all the trimmings, waited for ages, looked it over, test drove it for a day, saw the problems, got a refund on the deposit, kept the Discovery as unreliable as it is (= REALLY expensive in garage bills, running at £7K a year this past year, and it is booked in again next week for a new torque converter, replace 3 sensors, one water hose rubbed through by the engine cover, and a suspension warning problem). I contact the dealership now and again to see if there is any improvement to the product, none so far.

The bugs with the Grenadier are simply too many and too serious to switch. Loads of potential in the Grenadier, and any decent engineering manager would have had them licked by now. If they fixed just the middle 3 of those I mentioned, I would buy a Grenadier in an instant.
 
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AlexD said:
I put a deposit down on a Grenadier Trailmaster with all the trimmings, waited for ages, looked it over, test drove it for a day, saw the problems, got a refund on the deposit, kept the Discovery as unreliable as it is (= REALLY expensive in garage bills, running at £7K a year this past year, and it is booked in again next week for a new torque converter, replace 3 sensors, one water hose rubbed through by the engine cover, and a suspension warning problem). I contact the dealership now and again to see if there is any improvement to the product, none so far.

The bugs with the Grenadier are simply too many and too serious to switch. Loads of potential in the Grenadier, and any decent engineering manager would have had them licked by now. If they fixed just the middle 3 of those I mentioned, I would buy a Grenadier in an instant.
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interesting! i had one of the last Disco 4 but sold it after the warranty ran out because of the stories.
I then had a G350d and then a G400d before this grenadier.

weirdly i don’t see the problems you mention.
 
artschool said:
interesting! i had one of the last Disco 4 but sold it after the warranty ran out because of the stories.
I then had a G350d and then a G400d before this grenadier.

weirdly i don’t see the problems you mention.
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Intrigued:
1. Does yours not bleep with the overspeed warning, incessantly, as you go faster than what it thinks is the limit on the road? And all the other warnings? If not, how did you stop it?
2. How many full turns does your steering wheel go, lock to lock, and after the turn, how does it straighten? Have you added a canter to it somehow?

You won't be regretting your Disco sale - the stories are real as my garage bills testify. Can't remember the last time I drove it without at least one warning light coming on.
 
AlexD said:
You won't be regretting your Disco sale - the stories are real as my garage bills testify. Can't remember the last time I drove it without at least one warning light coming on.
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If the warning lights in a LR Disco aren't all permanently on (apart from the ones that are meant to be on, which are usually off) then you've clearly got a good'un. Cherish it.
 
AlexD said:
"Available in left hand drive only", and "All our 70 Series are made in Japan" even though Japan uses right hand drive like us, so aimed at the market in the Colonies. ;)
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If you bothered to look they do RHD as well
 
AlexD said:
Intrigued:
1. Does yours not bleep with the overspeed warning, incessantly, as you go faster than what it thinks is the limit on the road? And all the other warnings? If not, how did you stop it?
2. How many full turns does your steering wheel go, lock to lock, and after the turn, how does it straighten? Have you added a canter to it somehow?

You won't be regretting your Disco sale - the stories are real as my garage bills testify. Can't remember the last time I drove it without at least one warning light coming on.
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1. no beep because i didn’t get them to update the software. i use waze which has its own beep. the other work around is to program the favourites button to switch beep off in one push with no sub menus.
2. probably loads. i have never counted because it doesn’t bother me. there is also a aftermarket fix for the steering but i am not getting it because again it doesn’t bother me.

the D4 was the best car i have ever owned. it never gave me a days trouble. if they still made them i would probably still be driving one. as long as it had a warranty 😂
 
artschool said:
1. no beep because i didn’t get them to update the software. i use waze which has its own beep. the other work around is to program the favourites button to switch beep off in one push with no sub menus.
2. probably loads. i have never counted because it doesn’t bother me. there is also a aftermarket fix for the steering but i am not getting it because again it doesn’t bother me.

the D4 was the best car i have ever owned. it never gave me a days trouble. if they still made them i would probably still be driving one. as long as it had a warranty 😂
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That is very helpful, thank you. I did a search for the steering fix, and found the Aug '24 thread: Steering Retrofit as well as another one fixing the overly stiff steering bar. Was not aware there was a steering fix before you mentioned it.
Will explore this further, as some of the other Grenadier bugs such as the poor trim can be fixed easily. I had not realised that fixing an absence of canter had become one of the easy ones.

I know the fixes void the warranty, but that can't be as anywhere as bad as having a Disco 4 out of warranty, unless they built the Grenadier while enjoying a visit to a brewery. I understand the Ineos concept was conceived in a pub, but by all reports the production is OK.

I will call the Ineos dealer in the morning to ask about the software retro to remove the noise from all the alarms.

On the Disco 4, the car is very intelligent: it knows exactly how long that warranty lasts for and has been bribed by the factory to keep silent until then. Reminds me of a part of the St Petersburg metro built during Stalin's time where they went through the Niva river (a massive river) by putting in pipes that they pumped liquid nitrogen through until the water froze, then poured the concrete to make the metro, before removing the pipes. It sounded hairy so Stalin wanted a guarantee, and the architects obliged by giving one. The metro flooded literally 1 day after the guarantee expired and it cost $4bn to fix it. Disco 4s have the same type of warranty.
 
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AlexD said:
That is very helpful, thank you. I did a search for the steering fix, and found the Aug '24 thread: Steering Retrofit as well as another one fixing the overly stiff steering bar. Was not aware there was a steering fix before you mentioned it.
Will explore this further, as some of the other Grenadier bugs such as the poor trim can be fixed easily. I had not realised that fixing an absence of canter had become one of the easy ones.

I know the fixes void the warranty, but that can't be as anywhere as bad as having a Disco 4 out of warranty, unless they built the Grenadier while enjoying a visit to a brewery. I understand the Ineos concept was conceived in a pub, but by all reports the production is OK.

I will call the Ineos dealer in the morning to ask about the software retro to remove the noise from all the alarms.
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afaik they can’t downgrade the software but the update is what allows the physical favourite button down by the shifter to be allocated to any function. so it’s one push to disable the beeping over speed warning.
 
Pelyma said:
Just had an email from them launching the new Commercial that qualifies for VAT reclaim. Sadly only 2 seater and the permanently disabled chases mounts prevent retrofitting rear seats. Its a shame it isn't like the old Defender Utility Wagon.
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If you purchase a commercial vehicle new and then retrofit rear seats, you become liable for tax and your insurance could well be void.
 
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Brand new 70’s imported from SA. Still some v8s for sale. You can spec with none of that dpf nonsense and it’s all ulez compliant.

One of the benefits of Brexit
 
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