Season changes?

[Deerkeeper2]

The subject of deer seasons often comes up especially in relation to recent changes in Scotland.


Here is a suggestion / discussion point from me:


Why not make all the seasons for large (red/fallow/sika) deer across the UK the same as those for English roe? (Bucks open 01 April to 31 October, does open 01 November to 31March)


Here is my thinking:


- We all know that prioritising the female deer cull is hugely important in terms of population (and therefore habitat) management yet many people, myself included, still end up shooting high numbers of males which only adds to the already unbalanced herds that we commonly see. Shooting a male deer removes one, mainly non-breeding, animal from the herd; shooting a young female potentially removes ten plus in the long term. Removing the male season altogether, whilst it has little or no welfare implications, is a very simplistic approach to deer control.

- If male deer weren’t in season when the females are then we would have to wait for a female rather than shooting the first buck or pricket that we see when doe stalking. That pricket that comes out early in the evening becomes a decoy. The female cull would certainly increase for the same effort.


- There would always be one of the sexes in season so pressure could be maintained on populations. (Currently, we can’t shoot large deer in May, June or July)


- It would ease the ‘boom and bust’ situation that we see at the Game Dealers.



- It would avoid the situation where heavily ‘rutted’ and poor quality male carcasses are put into the food chain in November.



- The males would still be in hard antler at the beginning and end of their open season (early April and October) if shooting antlered males is part of your business model and they could still be shot in the beginning of the rut.



- Male fawns and calves could still be shot during the female season as per the current welfare exemption. (‘Have been or about to be deprived of their mother…’)


- There could still be tools in place (licensing and Section 7) to allow for the shooting of deer out of season if a case can be made.


- It would simplify the current seasons by making them almost all the same (I would still suggest no close season for muntjac and retain the current, single season for both sexes of water deer in line with the females of other species.

 

[Taff]

The reasons against the suggested male season, would be males that could have good heads would be shot before you could see there potential. You have to remember that most recreational stalkers are trophy hunters. If you want to control deer just have a open season on all deer.

 

[Tim.243]

The subject of deer seasons often comes up especially in relation to recent changes in Scotland.


Here is a suggestion / discussion point from me:


Why not make all the seasons for large (red/fallow/sika) deer across the UK the same as those for English roe? (Bucks open 01 April to 31 October, does open 01 November to 31March)


Here is my thinking:


- We all know that prioritising the female deer cull is hugely important in terms of population (and therefore habitat) management yet many people, myself included, still end up shooting high numbers of males which only adds to the already unbalanced herds that we commonly see. Shooting a male deer removes one, mainly non-breeding, animal from the herd; shooting a young female potentially removes ten plus in the long term. Removing the male season altogether, whilst it has little or no welfare implications, is a very simplistic approach to deer control.

- If male deer weren’t in season when the females are then we would have to wait for a female rather than shooting the first buck or pricket that we see when doe stalking. That pricket that comes out early in the evening becomes a decoy. The female cull would certainly increase for the same effort.


- There would always be one of the sexes in season so pressure could be maintained on populations. (Currently, we can’t shoot large deer in May, June or July)


- It would ease the ‘boom and bust’ situation that we see at the Game Dealers.



- It would avoid the situation where heavily ‘rutted’ and poor quality male carcasses are put into the food chain in November.



- The males would still be in hard antler at the beginning and end of their open season (early April and October) if shooting antlered males is part of your business model and they could still be shot in the beginning of the rut.



- Male fawns and calves could still be shot during the female season as per the current welfare exemption. (‘Have been or about to be deprived of their mother…’)


- There could still be tools in place (licensing and Section 7) to allow for the shooting of deer out of season if a case can be made.


- It would simplify the current seasons by making them almost all the same (I would still suggest no close season for muntjac and retain the current, single season for both sexes of water deer in line with the females of other species.

You try sexing a Red Calf to be M or F when it is low light...not a chance. Yes there will people say do this do that but a few come out at 150-200yds in long cover. Chocolate tea pot springs to mind.

 

[Deerkeeper2]

You try sexing a Red Calf to be M or F when it is low light...not a chance. Yes there will people say do this do that but a few come out at 150-200yds in long cover. Chocolate tea pot springs to mind.

Not sure what your point is? Shooting calves of either sex is already covered in existing legislation?

 

[Pete6.5]

You obviously believe your on to something so why don't you leave the males in the doe season to try and shoot more does?
You admitted you shoot more males already.

 

[David Barker]

Not sure what your point is? Shooting calves of either sex is already covered in existing legislation?

You miss the point we cant remove the open male season as most of Scottish deer are being shot in the dark by lamp or thermal. The open season on males was so that FLS did not need to continually apply for OOS licence. Regards have female Red deer shot same as England there is a real welfare issues and that's why there is a hate against moving the female season. So if you want to stand in Devon in Your S pedos in march enjoy but i would guess if you stand in your speado,s in march halfway up the Cairngorms mountains i am sure you would not last long.

 

[Deerkeeper2]

You obviously believe your on to something so why don't you leave the males in the doe season to try and shoot more does?
You admitted you shoot more males already.

That is a very valid point and you are right to call me out on it, I really wish that I could practice what I preach! Unfortunately, all my wild fallow culling is done as part of team and deer management group activities and we currently have, basically, shoot all animals that are in season and safe policies. I wish I still had some fallow ground entirely under my own control so that I could test the hypothesis.

 

[Deerkeeper2]

You miss the point we cant remove the open male season as most of Scottish deer are being shot in the dark by lamp or thermal. The open season on males was so that FLS did not need to continually apply for OOS licence. Regards have female Red deer shot same as England there is a real welfare issues and that's why there is a hate against moving the female season. So if you want to stand in Devon in Your S pedos in march enjoy but i would guess if you stand in your speado,s in march halfway up the Cairngorms mountains i am sure you would not last long.

That’s interesting Davie, obviously I posted the same thing on facebook and you suggested that the current model in Scotland isn’t working?

 

[Tim.243]

Not sure what your point is? Shooting calves of either sex is already covered in existing legislation?

I think that the doe season should be brought fwd to October as like many places it is much dryer making extraction easier lot of stubbles left so getting around is miles better
Oct-November is 4 weeks around here the shoots start in November so they disappear,
Wanted to go to this place today but he had a guy checking the ground as it was sunny and dry!
Last day for my Game Dealer is Monday and pants weather for this area till monday.

 

[David Barker]

That’s interesting Davie, obviously I posted the same thing on facebook and you suggested that the current model in Scotland isn’t working?

The model is quite clearly not working as we have tried everything to lower the number. Sadly opening up the male season regards roe deer has created the opposite effect it was ment to and we have seen a marked increase in Roe and Sika number,s

 

[Sol]

In my opinion I like the way Scotland is now I like being able to take a buck and or stag if it presents a shot, Yes is not a female so no "10 possible deer taken" If I had shot that animal but one less animal is still one less animal.

Not to mention Its not like we have an advanced system like the US where all our harvests are logged, unless we do something like that OR the government installs governmentally issued managers the deer population is never going to drop as much as we want it too It just wont happen Its near impossible as a individual too make an impact In a world where there's no guidance for our issue besides "shoot"

The UK could benefit with statistics like the US, instead of it did per-rare estate.

I went out 1-3 times a week since august (minus these last 3-ish weeks) and shot one doe... accidentally (not my proudest moment) the only other animal that presented a shot was a calf and a hind, I would of happily taken these animals I dont care about antler one bit but In near 50 stalks.... I'm shooting the first animal that gives me a shot.

 

[Nickb]

In my opinion I like the way Scotland is now I like being able to take a buck and or stag if it presents a shot, Yes is not a female so no "10 possible deer taken" If I had shot that animal but one less animal is still one less animal.

Not to mention Its not like we have an advanced system like the US where all our harvests are logged, unless we do something like that OR the government installs governmentally issued managers the deer population is never going to drop as much as we want it too It just wont happen Its near impossible as a individual too make an impact In a world where there's no guidance for our issue besides "shoot"

The UK could benefit with statistics like the US, instead of it did per-rare estate.

I went out 1-3 times a week since august (minus these last 3-ish weeks) and shot one doe... accidentally (not my proudest moment) the only other animal that presented a shot was a calf and a hind, I would of happily taken these animals I dont care about antler one bit but In near 50 stalks.... I'm shooting the first animal that gives me a shot.

You've shot 1 doe in 50 stalks , you need to take up golf or something

 

[Pete6.5]

I honestly believe (and I tell everyone that I meet and believe they have some power in their job to cause change in the law) that the simplest option is to just extend the legal time to TWO hours before and after sunset as a start.

 

[shakey jake]

Just allow lamping/night shooting, works well for foxes and rabbits

 

[Nickb]

Just allow lamping/night shooting, works well for foxes and rabbits

Exactly this

 

[David Barker]

Exactly this

Well that's something else that dose not work LMAO. We have been lamping deer al over scotland and still need to increase by 50% (50,000) deer

 

[Nickb]

Well that's something else that dose not work LMAO. We have been lamping deer al over scotland and still need to increase by 50% (50,000) deer

It would still be even higher if those deer hadn't been shot at night.
Problem in Scotland is not enough boots on the ground , a lot more bodies would mean more shot.

 

[shakey jake]

Well that's something else that dose not work LMAO. We have been lamping deer al over scotland and still need to increase by 50% (50,000) deer

What does work then? I see far more about whilst lamping foxes than when driving the same fields in the day.
If i kill 10 out of 12 seen each night isnt that a reduction?

 

[imnotrucknut]

I think that the doe season should be brought fwd to October as like many places it is much dryer making extraction easier lot of stubbles left so getting around is miles better
Oct-November is 4 weeks around here the shoots start in November so they disappear,
Wanted to go to this place today but he had a guy checking the ground as it was sunny and dry!
Last day for my Game Dealer is Monday and pants weather for this area till monday.
View attachment 398234

I personally would rather shoot does/hinds later than earlier.

Regards Gary

 

[slider]

The model is quite clearly not working as we have tried everything to lower the number. Sadly opening up the male season regards roe deer has created the opposite effect it was ment to and we have seen a marked increase in Roe and Sika number,s

How can we say it's clearly not working as the change to open season has only been in place for 14 months. The only set of NatureScot returned we have is from April 24, only 5 months after the change.