Good interesting write up, by the way, FAM30 eats wellies.
What's this, don't think it's TB....
- Thread starter Antonyweeks
- Start date
good to hear of a very positive experience with APHA vets! as above, fam is bloody good stuff for killing stuff like TB but it also kills wellies, and clothes, and paint etc etc so be careful. It has a 30 minute contact time so be sure to wash it off once your happy to try and prevent any excess damage!
if you could arrange something like this experience you had on a larger scale it would be very very useful for alot of stalkers, seeing a carcass inspection on a suspected TB case from a vet point of view could be very beneficial! I consider myself lucky to have a retired ministry vet of 32 years as my sort of stalking mentor!
if you could arrange something like this experience you had on a larger scale it would be very very useful for alot of stalkers, seeing a carcass inspection on a suspected TB case from a vet point of view could be very beneficial! I consider myself lucky to have a retired ministry vet of 32 years as my sort of stalking mentor!
Excellent write up, thank youHi folks
So an update on this. Who would have thought that a simple text from a neighbour would turn into quite a saga. Actually, it's been a superb learning experience.
I've been stalking for a while and gralloched a good few carcasses over the last few years. I've also passed various courses/exams etc etc and so know a fair amount of theory of what to do in the event of spotting a notifiable disease. However, I've never previously been called upon to do this. Like many part time stalkers I would suggest.
Following on from my original post I called APHA on the Saturday and spoke with a lovely vet called Clara (South West team). She explained that they don't do visits at the w/e but would come over on Monday. Clara duly arrived on Monday at my home (where my barn/larder area is) and proceeded to inspect the carcass. She was here about 2 hours.
Clara removed all of the nodes in the head to start with, not just those recommended in the DSC1 manual. The nodes were carefully placed on the bench, then she went through the rest of the carcass. She said that the nodes in the head looked normal until she'd incised them. She then pointed out tiny white marks which were consistent with TB lesions.
She then moved onto the pluck - commenting that the bronchial nodes didn't seem overly enlarged either. However, once incised they were not in a good condition at all. She palpated the lungs and got me to do the same - pointing out the differences between the soft areas and the front lower parts which were much firmer and not in a good shape at all - again following incision she also showed me various lesions within. The white lumps on the outside were lesions and she incised these showing me the pus that erupted from them. She incised the liver - again pointing out tiny white lesions within. Lastly, she then incised a couple of the large growths near the mesenteric nodes. For my part because they were so big I didn't originally think they were part of the mesenteric chain. Images online tend to show only marginal differences between 'normal' and enlarged.
Clara explained that whilst this particular carcass looked very sick she wouldn't necessarily confirm it was TB because, in her experience, she's seen multiple carcasses where symptoms look extremely obvious only for the carcass to be clear of TB and vice versa. However, in this instance, she said the carcass "presented symptons that were in keeping with an animal suffering from TB"!
The two huge lumps that initially put me off my stride (the two large ones near the kidneys) were filled with pus. In all the deer I've gralloched I'd never come across anything like it, hence the initial "is this TB or not" start to my post.
The whole 2 hours went past very quickly and Clara couldn't have been more helpful. Lots of lessons taken away from this episode:
Had I been more confident when first gralloching in retrospect I could (and probably should) have picked up on the issues with the lungs. Now having felt lungs in bad shape I have a reference point going forward. It's very easy I suspect to be blase about gralloching when pretty much every deer seems healthy.
Being with a very experienced vet whilst looking at all this is very different from being out with fellow 'non vet' stalkers like me who know the theory but perhaps not necessarily what 'problem' deer look like and what to do next! There is no simple "every case of TB looks like this" set of images. Clara said TB presents in many forms although there are some constants - white spots within incised nodes, for example.
APHA is a great resource - considering it is free for us as stalkers. Nothing like using a resource to learn about it. Reading about the process in the DSC1 & 2 manuals is not quite the same as actually going through it. I would suggest that the majority of stalkers are like me in that they are NOT vets and so can only go by a) what they've read in books about deer and b) whatever was learned on professional courses. A bit like passing a driving test - just because we get a full license doesn't mean we're an excellent driver when we first drive about the place on our own.
There were things I could have picked up on my own about this for sure and I'll know for next time.
Deer stalking for most of us I suspect is a part time activity and one which we enjoy. Nonetheless, continously learning and being open to learn about situations which may not quite match the text books or youtube 'how to' videos is really important too. Clearly sooner or later a carcass will not be a text book gralloch and examination with everything in the right place and the right size.
Lastly, as APHA would not dispose of the carcass I then had to find out who would! A local farmer put me in touch with West Country Casualties who turned up the following day and professionally removed the animal, all the liquids and innards all for £40. They were also excellent and I would recommend them to anyone in the South West who needs to dispose of animals.
In conculsion the clean up of the larder finally finished last night, having doused it with Fam 30 (which Clara put me on to) - disgusting stuff. A very interesting experience and I hope my blathering above is helpful for any stalkers who haven't yet dealt with a carcass not in tip top condition. I know some of you will probably read the above and think "What a pillock. He should spotted the potential for TB straight away, made that call and just got on with it!". Well, you're probably right! Nothing like sharing an issue though!
As for the original question "Is it TB", I'm afraid I don't have the answer yet. The samples were sent off and I should hear early next week about the initial findings and then in about 7 weeks once they've attempted to culture the stuff in a lab somewhere! Will keep you posted.
Not sure that Fam 30 was appropriate for food premises use though, being an idophore based disinfectant? Risk of strong odour / taint. It's usually used for livestock housing, boot dips and things like that.
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It's not the perfect choice but what the vet would have had for in her vehicle for general use in situations like this. Believe considered food safe in thoroughly washed away after the correct contact time.Excellent write up, thank you
Not sure that Fam 30 was appropriate for food premises use though, being an idophore based disinfectant? Risk of strong odour / taint. It's usually used for livestock housing, boot dips and things like that.
Many thanks for the write-up, which is both informative and very educational.Hi folks
So an update on this. Who would have thought that a simple text from a neighbour would turn into quite a saga. Actually, it's been a superb learning experience.
I've been stalking for a while and gralloched a good few carcasses over the last few years. I've also passed various courses/exams etc etc and so know a fair amount of theory of what to do in the event of spotting a notifiable disease. However, I've never previously been called upon to do this. Like many part time stalkers I would suggest.
Following on from my original post I called APHA on the Saturday and spoke with a lovely vet called Clara (South West team). She explained that they don't do visits at the w/e but would come over on Monday. Clara duly arrived on Monday at my home (where my barn/larder area is) and proceeded to inspect the carcass. She was here about 2 hours.
Clara removed all of the nodes in the head to start with, not just those recommended in the DSC1 manual. The nodes were carefully placed on the bench, then she went through the rest of the carcass. She said that the nodes in the head looked normal until she'd incised them. She then pointed out tiny white marks which were consistent with TB lesions.
She then moved onto the pluck - commenting that the bronchial nodes didn't seem overly enlarged either. However, once incised they were not in a good condition at all. She palpated the lungs and got me to do the same - pointing out the differences between the soft areas and the front lower parts which were much firmer and not in a good shape at all - again following incision she also showed me various lesions within. The white lumps on the outside were lesions and she incised these showing me the pus that erupted from them. She incised the liver - again pointing out tiny white lesions within. Lastly, she then incised a couple of the large growths near the mesenteric nodes. For my part because they were so big I didn't originally think they were part of the mesenteric chain. Images online tend to show only marginal differences between 'normal' and enlarged.
Clara explained that whilst this particular carcass looked very sick she wouldn't necessarily confirm it was TB because, in her experience, she's seen multiple carcasses where symptoms look extremely obvious only for the carcass to be clear of TB and vice versa. However, in this instance, she said the carcass "presented symptons that were in keeping with an animal suffering from TB"!
The two huge lumps that initially put me off my stride (the two large ones near the kidneys) were filled with pus. In all the deer I've gralloched I'd never come across anything like it, hence the initial "is this TB or not" start to my post.
The whole 2 hours went past very quickly and Clara couldn't have been more helpful. Lots of lessons taken away from this episode:
Had I been more confident when first gralloching in retrospect I could (and probably should) have picked up on the issues with the lungs. Now having felt lungs in bad shape I have a reference point going forward. It's very easy I suspect to be blase about gralloching when pretty much every deer seems healthy.
Being with a very experienced vet whilst looking at all this is very different from being out with fellow 'non vet' stalkers like me who know the theory but perhaps not necessarily what 'problem' deer look like and what to do next! There is no simple "every case of TB looks like this" set of images. Clara said TB presents in many forms although there are some constants - white spots within incised nodes, for example.
APHA is a great resource - considering it is free for us as stalkers. Nothing like using a resource to learn about it. Reading about the process in the DSC1 & 2 manuals is not quite the same as actually going through it. I would suggest that the majority of stalkers are like me in that they are NOT vets and so can only go by a) what they've read in books about deer and b) whatever was learned on professional courses. A bit like passing a driving test - just because we get a full license doesn't mean we're an excellent driver when we first drive about the place on our own.
There were things I could have picked up on my own about this for sure and I'll know for next time.
Deer stalking for most of us I suspect is a part time activity and one which we enjoy. Nonetheless, continously learning and being open to learn about situations which may not quite match the text books or youtube 'how to' videos is really important too. Clearly sooner or later a carcass will not be a text book gralloch and examination with everything in the right place and the right size.
Lastly, as APHA would not dispose of the carcass I then had to find out who would! A local farmer put me in touch with West Country Casualties who turned up the following day and professionally removed the animal, all the liquids and innards all for £40. They were also excellent and I would recommend them to anyone in the South West who needs to dispose of animals.
In conculsion the clean up of the larder finally finished last night, having doused it with Fam 30 (which Clara put me on to) - disgusting stuff. A very interesting experience and I hope my blathering above is helpful for any stalkers who haven't yet dealt with a carcass not in tip top condition. I know some of you will probably read the above and think "What a pillock. He should spotted the potential for TB straight away, made that call and just got on with it!". Well, you're probably right! Nothing like sharing an issue though!
As for the original question "Is it TB", I'm afraid I don't have the answer yet. The samples were sent off and I should hear early next week about the initial findings and then in about 7 weeks once they've attempted to culture the stuff in a lab somewhere! Will keep you posted.
My first suspicion on seeing the nodes on the chest cavity, and particularly the pale "pistachio" green colour of the incised node, was to think it is bTB, so it will be very interesting to see how the tests come back.
It is also very interesting to read Clara's diagnosis as she inspected the carcass and, like you, I've always found the poeple at APHA to be very helpful.
West Country Casualties sound pretty handy, but would disposing of the carcass via the local Hunt kennels also perhaps have been an option (not to feed to hounds, but to use their facility whereby they send animal by-products and fallen stock off for incineration)?
Alot of hunts don't deal with cat 1 abp. But worth checking.
Capriclense also contains iodine and sulphuric & phosphoric acids. I guess the purpose affects the specified dilution.Excellent write up, thank you
Not sure that Fam 30 was appropriate for food premises use though, being an idophore based disinfectant? Risk of strong odour / taint. It's usually used for livestock housing, boot dips and things like that.
Interestingly APHA's advice to me was to either use the knacker man or the local Hunt. Ours has a container where all the scraps and by-products get stored before sending off to the incinerator.
It's fortunate the Hunt is there, as the local knacker won't take drop-offs of carcases any more, and positively dissuade any private individuals from using their services. If hunting gets banned then it will have a severe impact on any local farms, racing stables and other equestrians, who rely on them for disposing of fallen stock.
That's a fair point on the taint, especially as the TB concentration is 1:14. Not sure what I'd be using, but probably one of the chlorine based ones like anigene followed by a thorough rinseExcellent write up, thank you
Not sure that Fam 30 was appropriate for food premises use though, being an idophore based disinfectant? Risk of strong odour / taint. It's usually used for livestock housing, boot dips and things like that.
Thanks for the write up, good to hear of the vet's approach
Yeah very much down to the individual hunt. Some do some don't. Collecting cat 1 would mean that's all they could collect in the vehicle, as it would taint anything in there they intended to feed to the hounds. So more costly to them to do individual trips rather then there usual rounds etc. Worth keeping a list of all your local options.
Indeed. It's like treacle at the current TB orders dilution rate!
FAM30, wheel wash troughs, pump spray under wheel arches, eats wellies if you make it too strong.
Antonyweeks
Well-Known Member
Couple of further things:
Clara from AHPA said that the guidance for disinfecting for TB changes all the time. Currently FAM30 is the proscribed product. However, she left me with a few sachets of Virkon S and said this was a great cleaning product but now not considered sufficient for TB. Not so long ago it was ok apparently. Make of that what you will.
Additionally, I did consider calling the hunt but a local mate of mine suggested they might not be too keen to collect along with all the innards and blood (and cleaning water) that were sloshing around in my deer sled (which was under the hanging animal). WCC came along and took everything including all the liquid that went into the back of the truck. I'm not sure if the hunt would have collected but it's a moot point now as the WCC guys did a great job.
Clara from AHPA said that the guidance for disinfecting for TB changes all the time. Currently FAM30 is the proscribed product. However, she left me with a few sachets of Virkon S and said this was a great cleaning product but now not considered sufficient for TB. Not so long ago it was ok apparently. Make of that what you will.
Additionally, I did consider calling the hunt but a local mate of mine suggested they might not be too keen to collect along with all the innards and blood (and cleaning water) that were sloshing around in my deer sled (which was under the hanging animal). WCC came along and took everything including all the liquid that went into the back of the truck. I'm not sure if the hunt would have collected but it's a moot point now as the WCC guys did a great job.
Yeah it temporarily lost approval for tb, before coming back with a stronger dilution. Virkon s was temproralily licensed for use but isnt currently licensed for it. Things like that happen from time to time. Virkon is the go to against bird flu etc. And much less aggressive on wellies etc. Certainly won't hurt!
Great write up. Looking forward to hearing the results. APHA veterinary services are a fantastic resource for this sort of thing - national bee unit are another example - but often undervalued by those who make funding decisions despite the fundamental importance of such services for food safety and security.
Another possible disinfectant is something like anigene hld4v which is effective against mycobacteria.
Another possible disinfectant is something like anigene hld4v which is effective against mycobacteria.
Had me confused for a moment.
"prescribe/ proscribe" are very similar words but have almost opposite meanings. To prescribe is to recommend and to proscribe is to forbid.
Probably just a typo... in any event, thanks for an excellent thread.
Agreed, great thread, but your noting of the typo puts us / you in the "pedantic group," we who like to explain, leaving us open to be mistakenly described as paedo.
Surely not! What kind of a fool would confuse their paediatrics with their pedagoguery! (Everyone, I'm really sorry about this, but it's stronger than I am.Agreed, great thread, but your noting of the typo puts us / you in the "pedantic group," we who like to explain, leaving us open to be mistakenly described as paedo.
)
Surely not! What kind of a fool would confuse their paediatrics with their pedagoguery! (Everyone, I'm really sorry about this, but it's stronger than I am.
HonestJohn
Well-Known Member
You’ve just learned a lot very quickly! Well done! Most tag-along stalkers/paying guests will go a lifetime without such skills that you have now acquired in a very short space of time. 
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