Lead ammunition restrictions - government announcement

[Smellydog]

Can I just say please.

I hate this country and all that it has become.
It's as oppressive as any other oppressive state only they spin the yarn more finely.
They tax me on nearly every God dam thing then tell me how bad my interest is and it's got to go.
Meanwhile thousand's of illegal immigrants flood in. There has been murders and raping. You can smoke and drink yourself stupid. You can play violent games while eating $hite. You can rob, you can take hard drugs. The list goes on and on but shoot lead! Pathetic.
Hypocrisy hypocrisy hypocrisy all the dam while.
God I hate this land.
When I see some fool flying the flag I don't know whether to laugh, cry or vomit!

 

[Heym SR20]

For all those Pro Lead, you have a simple solution. The lead arguments are based on long standing scientific research conducted over many years. Government advisors make their recommendations based on the weight of evidence presented by different sides of the argument.

The pro lead argument can be summerised as -“ I have eaten game all my life and I am not dead yet”.

It’s anecdotal, not scientific, and therefore pretty much disregarded.

There is no point whining about BASC, GWCT etc etc. Their position is clear and has been for a number of years. They are democratic associations with membership able to vote for council members.

Instead the prolead campaign needs to organise itself and produce some real research based data that withstands scientific rigour.

I would suggest something along the lines of:

A review of medical records of a large cohort of those who hold FACs and SCs and who regularly eat game. I would also include their families including children to ascertain whether there is incidence of medical conditions that are associated with lead, and comparing with the norm of the population.

You would need a large cohort who are willing to grant to the researchers access to medical records etc.

Then also conduct studies. These would need to be in scientific animals such as rats or pigs, as well as birds such as chickens or ducks, and feeding over a long period food that contains low levels of lead, and comparing these with a control. You might be able to do these initially on a cellular culture basis.

You would need good recognised researchers, well published and recognised by their pears to lead such studies to demonstrate unequivocally that lead is not harmful to living organisms.

Given many of the responses on SD, you should have no problem in recruiting subjects for the studies, nor the funding to support such studies.

 

[Sol]

Will lead still be allowed on legal quarry or Is a blanket ban on all calibres? I looked through the thread and seen users pointing out an inconsistently in wording that would intail even .222 lead on roe wouldn't be legal anymore.

I planned to send in my application here soon (next 12mths) that obviously dictates in what I should be looking for and purchasing, I didnt plan on sending an application in with .243 on it (probably more .222 / .22) but I dont see the point of considering a .243 anymore I wouldn't feel comfortable shooting reds with lead free that's currently on market.

Also not sure what the ammunition choices are for lead free is .222 or if going too something like 22-250 would be more sensible.

 

[bowji john]

Can I just say please.

I hate this country and all that it has become.
It's as oppressive as any other oppressive state only they spin the yarn more finely.
They tax me on nearly every God dam thing then tell me how bad my interest is and it's got to go.
Meanwhile thousand's of illegal immigrants flood in. There has been murders and raping. You can smoke and drink yourself stupid. You can play violent games while eating $hite. You can rob, you can take hard drugs. The list goes on and on but shoot lead! Pathetic.
Hypocrisy hypocrisy hypocrisy all the dam while.
God I hate this land.
When I see some fool flying the flag I don't know whether to laugh, cry or vomit!

I hear what you say

We are too old and our roots too deep to move now

My wife and I have discussed it though

I still have US / UK dual nationality ( though the US tries to get folk to surrender their original status)

I suspect that this country is holed below the water line

A Neurotic and idle youth with expectations way beyond their skill set

A socialist Gov that has 4 years (apparently) to truly destroy the economic base

An invasion of the useless and the culturally immiscible

I can see no route to survival

I suspect that I’ll regret not ‘taking the gap’ and leaving

 

[Stevie/P]

I planned to send in my application here soon (next 12mths) that obviously dictates in what I should be looking for and purchasing

.270 Winchester

 

[Mike1979]

.270 Winchester

6.5 Creedmoor

 

[countrryboy]

Unfortunately that’s what’s required.
Previously we were asking for proof of damage and arguing that every single study demonstrating the negative impacts of lead was flawed or didn’t apply to our particular circumstances.
There are quite a few on the forum still doing this.

However, we are now the ones answering the question and the question is along these lines…

“ Given that lead is a proven heavy metal poison with no safe level of exposure, demonstrate and prove that the several thousand tons of lead that you broadcast into the environment annually as part of a leisure industry has, as you claim, no deleterious impacts?”

Not an easy argument to counter, is it?

If u replace the word lead with esp copper but also steel could the exact same not be true??
Surely the onus is still on us to prove its safe?
And their is a safe limit.

Have any studies been done on long term ingestion off either steel or copper??
Or thier effects on wildlife?

If u told me to swallow a spoonfull of copper, steel or lead shot i wouldnt do it

Yes lead is and can be very toxic in some forms. It can also be very stable in others.
And antcedotal or not esp in uk or 1st world perspective no one is eating anywhere near enough to have the slightest risk of being affected by lead shot ingestion.

Personally ate lead for decades really dont see a problem with it on dry land.
But i completely understand from a game dealers perspective having game shot with non toxics.

But im very worried this will be 1 constsnt battle of having to prove the next subsitute is safe.
Which is near impossible and expensive.
Be a very real battle/problem over single use plastics on horizon very shortly.
And all the time smoking, vaping, drinking, ultra processed foods E numbers, chemical sweeteners etc are perfectly legal and very very widespread.
Its just completrly bonkers

 

[Dunwaters]

If u replace the word lead with esp copper but also steel could the exact same not be true??
Surely the onus is still on us to prove its safe?
And their is a safe limit.

So far the WHO hasn’t said that theres no safe level of either steel or copper, so safe for the moment.

Have any studies been done on long term ingestion of either steel or copper??

Iron tablets were commonly prescribed for pregnant women, I think they still do and there are no reports of ill effects.
Some people wear copper in contact with their skin, they swear it provides relief from arthritis, I don’t know anything about copper tablets.
In the case of both substances if inserted into the body at high velocity they can definitely cause lethal levels of trauma.

Or thier effects on wildlife?

If u told me to swallow a spoonfull of copper, steel or lead shot i wouldnt do it

Me neither.

Yes lead is and can be very toxic in some forms. It can also be very stable in others.
And antcedotal or not esp in uk or 1st world perspective no one is eating anywhere near enough to have the slightest risk of being affected by lead shot ingestion.

So why wouldn’t you eat some?

 

[homer]

Will lead still be allowed on legal quarry or Is a blanket ban on all calibres? I looked through the thread and seen users pointing out an inconsistently in wording that would intail even .222 lead on roe wouldn't be legal anymore.

I planned to send in my application here soon (next 12mths) that obviously dictates in what I should be looking for and purchasing, I didnt plan on sending an application in with .243 on it (probably more .222 / .22) but I dont see the point of considering a .243 anymore I wouldn't feel comfortable shooting reds with lead free that's currently on market.

Also not sure what the ammunition choices are for lead free is .222 or if going too something like 22-250 would be more sensible.

Afaik, any calibre below 243 will still be allowed lead, so 22-250, 223, 222 etc will be ok, so in Scotland you can still shoot roe with these, which kind of makes a mockery of the whole system. My 243 is set up for fixes only so I will probably look at going down to a 22-250 so i can still shoot lead.
Or you could move across the water to northern Ireland where they have a government that listened and no changes will be made!

 

[Liveonce]

For all those Pro Lead, you have a simple solution. The lead arguments are based on long standing scientific research conducted over many years. Government advisors make their recommendations based on the weight of evidence presented by different sides of the argument.

The pro lead argument can be summerised as -“ I have eaten game all my life and I am not dead yet”.

It’s anecdotal, not scientific, and therefore pretty much disregarded.

There is no point whining about BASC, GWCT etc etc. Their position is clear and has been for a number of years. They are democratic associations with membership able to vote for council members.

Instead the prolead campaign needs to organise itself and produce some real research based data that withstands scientific rigour.

I would suggest something along the lines of:

A review of medical records of a large cohort of those who hold FACs and SCs and who regularly eat game. I would also include their families including children to ascertain whether there is incidence of medical conditions that are associated with lead, and comparing with the norm of the population.

You would need a large cohort who are willing to grant to the researchers access to medical records etc.

Then also conduct studies. These would need to be in scientific animals such as rats or pigs, as well as birds such as chickens or ducks, and feeding over a long period food that contains low levels of lead, and comparing these with a control. You might be able to do these initially on a cellular culture basis.

You would need good recognised researchers, well published and recognised by their pears to lead such studies to demonstrate unequivocally that lead is not harmful to living organisms.

Given many of the responses on SD, you should have no problem in recruiting subjects for the studies, nor the funding to support such studies.

Why did Norway ban lead shot then reverse the ban if the scientific evidence is so compelling?

 

[25 Sharps]

You have 3 years to use up your stocks of lead ammunition, after that you have very limited options.
If you follow the EU REACH proposals ( and you seem to be in lock step with them ) the sale, use and possession of prohibited lead ammunition will become illegal after the transition period.
Expect regular checks of game on dealers racks to monitor progress during the transition period and expect more monitoring post transition period with questions being asked and possibly prosecutions to follow.
You’ll probably get away with using lead if you keep quiet and just eat the stuff yourself, but the commercial sector will transition.
To those of you threatening to buy .22 centre fires specifically to shoot deer with lead ammunition post ban, I ask why?
Do you really think that a hot .22 using lead will perform better than a slightly larger caliber using non lead?
I shot deer with hot .22’s for over 20 years, they come with serious drawbacks, especially for the 3 larger species.

We can’t use .22s for larger species, or roe in England and Wales, so your last point is moot.

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

And yet another lead thread degenerates into misinformed and misguided BASC bashing

Will lead still be allowed on legal quarry or Is a blanket ban on all calibres? I looked through the thread and seen users pointing out an inconsistently in wording that would intail even .222 lead on roe wouldn't be legal anymore.

I planned to send in my application here soon (next 12mths) that obviously dictates in what I should be looking for and purchasing, I didnt plan on sending an application in with .243 on it (probably more .222 / .22) but I dont see the point of considering a .243 anymore I wouldn't feel comfortable shooting reds with lead free that's currently on market.

Also not sure what the ammunition choices are for lead free is .222 or if going too something like 22-250 would be more sensible.

Some FAQs are here:

Lead ammunition restrictions - your questions answered

Read our answers to questions about the planned lead ammunition legislation and what it means for shotgun, rifle and airgun shooters.

basc.org.uk

 

[Chris Richardson]

@Heym SR20 have you found any studies yet that show a case of someone becoming ill from lead shot game it’s been a while …..

 

[Chris Richardson]

And yet another lead thread degenerates into misinformed and misguided BASC bashing

Some FAQs are here:

Lead ammunition restrictions - your questions answered

Read our answers to questions about the planned lead ammunition legislation and what it means for shotgun, rifle and airgun shooters.

basc.org.uk

Not misguided at all it was no evidence no change then all of a sudden it’s change with zero consultation with members what did you expect

 

[Leec6.5]

And yet another lead thread degenerates into misinformed and misguided BASC bashing

Some FAQs are here:

Lead ammunition restrictions - your questions answered

Read our answers to questions about the planned lead ammunition legislation and what it means for shotgun, rifle and airgun shooters.

basc.org.uk

You should be used to it by now!

 

[countrryboy]

So far the WHO hasn’t said that theres no safe level of either steel or copper, so safe for the moment.

I'd imagine that will only take a few questions and a bit of lobbying pressure thou?
After all no one would ask the WHO that before it becomes normal.
Like i said will be just like the General Licences an endless battle trying to defend

Iron tablets were commonly prescribed for pregnant women, I think they still do and there are no reports of ill effects.
Some people wear copper in contact with their skin, they swear it provides relief from arthritis, I don’t know anything about copper tablets.
In the case of both substances if inserted into the body at high velocity they can definitely cause lethal levels of trauma.


Me neither.

So why wouldn’t you eat some?

U know they make water pipes out of lead right?
I mean wot could be safer?
Just saying.

U also used to make weedkiller out of copper.
In the old days i was told they would put a copper strip on top of the roif to try to stip moss growing on it.
And they say trees really dontvlike copper nails ( never tried it myself) but if a copper nail kills a tree u dont want to be hanging ur zeroing target on a tree.
Some livestock species can be very susceptable to copper both deficancies and too much.

In reality no one knows wot will happen if and when folk start to actually ingest steel or copper.


I dare say just like lead no one really knows.
Possibly even with steel will the exact mix matter??
We do however have hundreds of years ingesting lead with little to no side effects.

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

Not misguided at all it was no evidence no change then all of a sudden it’s change with zero consultation with members what did you expect

Are you a member?

 

[enfieldspares]

Tungsten is, apparently, not something you want to ingest either.

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

You should be used to it by now!

It is unwarranted, immature and tedious.

 

[AlexD]

The ammo will not be lead free, in fact the most toxic compound of lead is still there in "lead free" rounds, namely Lead styphnate in the primer.

Lead styphnate is sort of water soluble, is absorbed readily into the body, and there is clear evidence of a fair few people having poisoned themselves or their children from reloading in dumb places such as their kitchen.

Only the inert lead that is in the bullet will be banned.

If anyone would like to make a jump to .22-250 and keep their lead bullets, then Edinburgh Rifles have a nice Savage 110 in .22-250 available. I declare an interest, my wife having just bought me a Tikka .22-250. Ed is selling my former gun before I even had chance to put 100 rounds through it.