Lead ammunition restrictions - government announcement

[Conor O'Gorman]

It was something else, I'd already cancelled with BASC and unfortunately needed insurance. I happened to have a NGO rep sat in front of me and went with it for ease!

Thanks, that's good of you to come back to me, many would not, knowing that this would lead to my next point, which is that you don't mention NGO when criticising BASC about the voluntary transition away from lead shot for live quarry shooting that both BASC and NGO have supported. So I guess my question is why would you focus on BASC in your last few comments on this thread and not NGO?

 

[User100]

And most of them mute, that's handy hey Connor!

I am 100% supportive of BASC's efforts.

But... in nearly every way they don't represent my views on reared driven game shooting or on deer management in England, for example.

However, having spent a number of years trying to influence Government policy myself, I have every respect for their investment of time, research, collation of information, employment of skills to make their case.

Just imagine if BASC's negotiating position was "our members don't believe that lead presents any issues, so we're arguing the same point. We object to any lead restrictions." Haha, what a total laughing stock.

So I applaud BASC's approach to working out how best to develop a realistic position that might actually influence policy effectively across different Governments.

It doesn't promote or achieve what I want, anywhere near, but there's no other organization getting close for what I support.

I believe all 'our' organizations have to tread a very fine balance and BASC manage it a lot more successfully than BDS or NGO etc.

Negotiation and compromise is always more successful than denial.

 

[Liveonce]

My understanding is that a key concern during the HSE review was that shooters would use lead shot intended for target shooting for live quarry shooting, based on evidence of widespread non-compliance by inland shooters for the species/wetlands restrictions that have been in place for two decades.

See:

Statement on HSE proposals to restrict use of lead ammunition in Great Britain – HSE Media Centre

press.hse.gov.uk

going by memory was that sampling of duck at game dealers with no traceability of where the duck originated from.

Also that makes for poor law, some car drivers speed but they do not ban cars for all, they inforce the law.

 

[Smellydog]

The BASC bashing is by the same dozen, mostly ex-BASC members with entrenched views, out of over 30,000 SD members. As regards your comment that most SD members are mutes, perhaps consider that there might be more comments on threads like this were it not for your (and others) sometimes oppressive behaviour to anyone that has a different viewpoint to yourself on using non-lead ammunition or on policy developments on moving away from some uses of lead ammunition. You write some great stories about your outdoor adventures, and you may not intend to come across as oppressive when expressing your views on non-lead ammunition, but perhaps consider that others may feel intimidated by your (and others) reactions in threads such as this.

So apart from mute they don't have a spine either? Is that you assuming again?
Or are you seeking I join there ranks.
Handy for you that I think

Though I don't disagree with the first sentiment, you mustn't forget that some of us serve that flag and accordingly fly it with pride for what it did, and what it can, represent.
Tread lightly my friend.

That is your free choice and with respect I shall tread how I like. Thank you.

 

[Chris Richardson]

Thanks, that's good of you to come back to me, many would not, knowing that this would lead to my next point, which is that you don't mention NGO when criticising BASC about the voluntary transition away from lead shot for live quarry shooting that both BASC and NGO have supported. So I guess my question is why would you focus on BASC in your last few comments on this thread and not NGO?

It’s not voluntary without consulting members

 

[timbrayford]

John retired from BASC in 2013 and is entitled to his personal opinions and perspective a decade later. The voluntary transition away from lead shot for live quarry shooting was announced in 2020. The government has announced it will ban lead shot for live quarry shooting in 2029. This obsession with John is bizarre and unhealthy.

You still don't get it do you Conor. With all due respect had you considered a career away from PR, you're not exactly winning people over to BASC's point of view are you?

 

[Ruger#1]

BASC has been fighting lead ban proposals in the UK since the 1980s

This claim is not supported by your own contribution which largely consisted of posting material in support of restricting the use of lead shot.
How you have the cheek to labour the idea that BASC has always opposed lead ammunition restrictions when your own actions undermined that stance is frankly beyond me.
If BASC as you say continued the fight against the imposition of an almost total lead ban then it’s efforts were inadequate as not one meaningful concession was achieved.
Of course that was inevitable when they caved in by supporting a voluntary ban and yourself spent hours on forums justifying that weak stance when in theory BASC were still opposing any further lead restrictions.
Smoke, mirrors and politics.
Hang your head in shame your contribution to fighting the lead ban proposals was to undermine any opposition to it.

 

[Chris Richardson]

When I saw this news pop into my email inox this morning, I thought maybe I'll stay away from the SD and the Shooting Times letters page for a few days. And then I thought it would make for good entertainment.

It may be entertaining for you but in what way do you think this is a good thing ?

 

[timbrayford]

Im not sure exactly what year however I went with NGO.

I did likewise, the NGO cover much of what BASC claims to but have their feet planted firmly on the ground, work with their members on their behalf and without all that head office attitude stuff that is ruining BASC.

 

[countrryboy]

So simply put the HSE ignored the shooting organisations and individuals like myself that completed the consultations so they were just a tick in box process.

Im only surprised ur surprised.
Esp in scotland consultation after consultation widely ignored, even advice by their own experts panels and workubg droups ignored when it doesnae suit their agenda.

I may be wrong here but i will be very very surprised if the exemptions for airguns and small cal rifles stay.

Make no mistake this is not about public or animal safety it is purely an attack on shooting.
Why would WWT spend charity donations that should be going to help birds pay for studies about health effects of lead sgot in humans??

Do u really see Liebout giving 2 hoots wot Hse or Basc ( basc hardly knows wot it thinks itself, more facez that a town hall clock) thinks.
HSE wont care if they go even stricter with the legislation.

Its a double whammy for them ban ALL lwad no exemptions good for environment bad for shooters meaning toffs.
Its a no brainer, wot labour activist is goi g to be unhappy about that, a nice bit of class warfare.
Not like its going to cost liebour any votes is it.
Any rural votes disapeared with them shafting the farmers.
The big problem is we have no leverage, no cards to play, . Basc still think they do have leverage or cards to pmay which just showz how out of touch they are.
We're completrly at the mercy of a labour government with nothibg to lose by shaftibg us.

Wot do they care if someone can use an airgun or 22lr or not??

If i was a politician id be asking
Ilead is as bad why is their even excemptions?
And basc has no leg to stand on to defend the excemption as it started it.
If i was a non shooting politican i would just ban the lot no exemptuons

 

[Smellydog]

The above post by @countrryboy is valid and exactly why I am so very emotive on this whole vindictive and prejudice process and for some bizarre reason the majority of think doing a deal, a compromise or appeasing is the way forward!
It isn't, it's us being robbed a little more, again.
Now I understand some guys wish to not get emotive. They see an alternative and so what therefore they think. What's the problem?
The problem is we are being robbed of freedom of choice. So what's next??

Some may only be casual shooting folk and be quite prepared to sell up and do something else.
Some of us however it is a way of life.
A fruitful way of life I might add.

Another emotive facet for some of us is that in nutshell we are being criminalised in a underhanded way. We are being forced to stop doing something that for a few hundred years has demonstrated to be perfectly safe! In fact more death's and injuries to hunters has been done by freak accidents with a firearm than lead poisoning. Using the premise of lead is toxic has little to no basis in shooting. There is no link to health issues via consuming shot produce. It's also a complete assumption that someone is going to deliberately eat lead shot. Personally I can't think of something more unappetising than a bird full of holes.
All that was needed was a metal detector at game dealers and a surcharge put on the shoot for birds carrying shot or something like that. Good practice over greed was all that was needed.

Anyway, I'm looking into an alternative bullet for my 3030, reluctantly, with a foul taste in my mouth.
Shotgun wise hmmm, it'll get to expensive I think so my rifles will get used more I guess.
The muzzleloaders will probably get cut up ( can you hear the shouts of joy?) but not the 10g and the flintlock, I can make fire with the flintlock despite what whoever says against me.
The big question for me just now is the rimfires and air rifles as mentioned previously in the post by @countrryboy and the 222 once the Labours get their grubby mitts on the paper in our wonderful puppet show, parliament.
On that note, isn't it wonderful how NI isn't affected. I wonder if that is anything to do with how they have such an explosive history compared to the English that tend to just roll over and play dead!
The English lol, they think they are civilised and upright. Not really, their history is full of oppression. The British empire was built via controlling simple people's with a weapon, as soon as the indigenous people got the same weapons the British empire shrinks! Now Britain only has it's own people to oppress and a dam fine job they are doing of it too!
Anyway, I wish you all the best of luck, because that is all we have left and will need!

 

[Mike L]

STOP RANTING, you are diluting your valuable input with incoherent babbling.

 

[sikamalc]

What a Joke!

 

[Dunwaters]

The above post by @countrryboy is valid and exactly why I am so very emotive on this whole vindictive and prejudice process and for some bizarre reason the majority of think doing a deal, a compromise or appeasing is the way forward!
It isn't, it's us being robbed a little more, again.
Now I understand some guys wish to not get emotive. They see an alternative and so what therefore they think. What's the problem?
The problem is we are being robbed of freedom of choice. So what's next??

Some may only be casual shooting folk and be quite prepared to sell up and do something else.
Some of us however it is a way of life.
A fruitful way of life I might add.

Another emotive facet for some of us is that in nutshell we are being criminalised in a underhanded way. We are being forced to stop doing something that for a few hundred years has demonstrated to be perfectly safe! In fact more death's and injuries to hunters has been done by freak accidents with a firearm than lead poisoning. Using the premise of lead is toxic has little to no basis in shooting. There is no link to health issues via consuming shot produce. It's also a complete assumption that someone is going to deliberately eat lead shot. Personally I can't think of something more unappetising than a bird full of holes.
All that was needed was a metal detector at game dealers and a surcharge put on the shoot for birds carrying shot or something like that. Good practice over greed was all that was needed.

Anyway, I'm looking into an alternative bullet for my 3030, reluctantly, with a foul taste in my mouth.
Shotgun wise hmmm, it'll get to expensive I think so my rifles will get used more I guess.
The muzzleloaders will probably get cut up ( can you hear the shouts of joy?) but not the 10g and the flintlock, I can make fire with the flintlock despite what whoever says against me.
The big question for me just now is the rimfires and air rifles as mentioned previously in the post by @countrryboy and the 222 once the Labours get their grubby mitts on the paper in our wonderful puppet show, parliament.
On that note, isn't it wonderful how NI isn't affected. I wonder if that is anything to do with how they have such an explosive history compared to the English that tend to just roll over and play dead!
The English lol, they think they are civilised and upright. Not really, their history is full of oppression. The British empire was built via controlling simple people's with a weapon, as soon as the indigenous people got the same weapons the British empire shrinks! Now Britain only has it's own people to oppress and a dam fine job they are doing of it too!
Anyway, I wish you all the best of luck, because that is all we have left and will need!

I’ll give this one more try….

My friend, it’s not all about lead poisoning in humans, thats pretty irrelevant, the problem is the inadvertent impacts on wildlife.
You know this, but you keep harping on as though the only impact of lead use is on the human population, its not, it never was and widespread non compliance with existing regulations restricting lead use has been well documented.
That last bit is a fact, 20 years after it should have stopped, the majority of waterfowl were falling to lead shot.
Now let’s try to sort you personal battery,( however I have to point out that some of your questions would indicate that you have not read the HSE document).
Your 30/30 should be usable with whatever projectiles are in use in California and one or 2 other places in the US where lead has been banned.
Your air guns, rimfire’s and .222 are below 6.17mm so exempt from the restrictions. PLEASE don’t tell me that you have a .25 caliber air rifle…..
You can choose to cut up your muzzleloader or use one of the alternatives, TSS, Bismuth Tungsten. ( I did read somewhere that muzzle loaders were to be exempt, but maybe I got that completely wrong, or maybe it was European regs).
As an alternative to the above expensive alternatives, what’s the max velocity you can get with steel? I seem to recall that solid ball could be launched at 1300fps or so, thats equal to a standard steel load, can you do that with an ounce of steel 4’s? Can you access a chronograph and do a bit of testing?
You could also move to NI, still in the UK and still for all practical purposes, in the EU.
Its denizens also demonstrate a very laissez faire attitude towards compliance with any regulations whatsoever, housing is relatively cheap, theres loads of jobs and can have a pistol if you want.
That could be the perfect solution, however as a staunch Republican, I have to point out that the air up there smells funny and they paint their kerbstones, other than that its fine.

 

[Tim.243]

The above post by @countrryboy is valid and exactly why I am so very emotive on this whole vindictive and prejudice process and for some bizarre reason the majority of think doing a deal, a compromise or appeasing is the way forward!
It isn't, it's us being robbed a little more, again.
Now I understand some guys wish to not get emotive. They see an alternative and so what therefore they think. What's the problem?
The problem is we are being robbed of freedom of choice. So what's next??

Some may only be casual shooting folk and be quite prepared to sell up and do something else.
Some of us however it is a way of life.
A fruitful way of life I might add.

Another emotive facet for some of us is that in nutshell we are being criminalised in a underhanded way. We are being forced to stop doing something that for a few hundred years has demonstrated to be perfectly safe! In fact more death's and injuries to hunters has been done by freak accidents with a firearm than lead poisoning. Using the premise of lead is toxic has little to no basis in shooting. There is no link to health issues via consuming shot produce. It's also a complete assumption that someone is going to deliberately eat lead shot. Personally I can't think of something more unappetising than a bird full of holes.
All that was needed was a metal detector at game dealers and a surcharge put on the shoot for birds carrying shot or something like that. Good practice over greed was all that was needed.

Anyway, I'm looking into an alternative bullet for my 3030, reluctantly, with a foul taste in my mouth.
Shotgun wise hmmm, it'll get to expensive I think so my rifles will get used more I guess.
The muzzleloaders will probably get cut up ( can you hear the shouts of joy?) but not the 10g and the flintlock, I can make fire with the flintlock despite what whoever says against me.
The big question for me just now is the rimfires and air rifles as mentioned previously in the post by @countrryboy and the 222 once the Labours get their grubby mitts on the paper in our wonderful puppet show, parliament.
On that note, isn't it wonderful how NI isn't affected. I wonder if that is anything to do with how they have such an explosive history compared to the English that tend to just roll over and play dead!
The English lol, they think they are civilised and upright. Not really, their history is full of oppression. The British empire was built via controlling simple people's with a weapon, as soon as the indigenous people got the same weapons the British empire shrinks! Now Britain only has it's own people to oppress and a dam fine job they are doing of it too!
Anyway, I wish you all the best of luck, because that is all we have left and will need!

A new track for Vinal Friday (Modified) Just as disappointed as the rest of us
And now, the end is near
And so I face my final shotgun
My friend, I'll say it clear
I'll state my case, of which I'm certain
I've lived a life that's full
I traveled each and every highway
And more, much more than this
I did it my way
Regrets, I've had a few
But then again, I fired a few did I mention!
I did what I had to do
And Thought I would get an
exemption
I planned each charted course
Each careful load to perfection
And more, much more than this
I did it my way

Yes, there were times, I'm sure you knew
When I put in more than I should
But through it all, when there was doubt
I ate it up and spit it out
I faced it all, and I stood tall
And did it my way

 

[Smellydog]

STOP RANTING, you are diluting your valuable input with incoherent babbling.

One day the prejudice will touch you also.
I hope it doesn't bring on incoherent babbling for you.
There is always the ignor button.

What a Joke!

You have the option to ban who ever you wish.
If my content is a joke stop it.

As an alternative to the above expensive alternatives, what’s the max velocity you can get with steel? I seem to recall that solid ball could be launched at 1300fps or so, thats equal to a standard steel load, can you do that with an ounce of steel 4’s?

It is difficult with shot from a muzzleloader verses a ball.
Due the high volume of gasses produced and solids the faster you try to drive shot from a muzzleloader tend to ruin patterns.
As a general rule but not absolute 900 to 1000fps is optimum hence the reason why lead is so important.
It is my belief that shotgun chokes didn't first come about to increase shotgun range but an attempt to control the known issue of black powder blowing shotgun patterns and by default went on to increase shotgun range, especially when smokeless powders appeared.

Re wildlife, on my grounds that I have used lead on for 30 years and on ground heavily shot over by others, organised shoots large and small wildlife is thriving and not in decline.

 

[Smellydog]

@Tim.243
How many time have we had to read your American bashing?
You'd be speaking German now were it not for America.
Go ahead and take the proverbial.

 

[Mike L]

One day the prejudice will touch you also.
I hope it doesn't bring on incoherent babbling for you.
There is always the ignor button.

See, ignore where I say valuable input, focus on the negative.
Are you sure you don’t have lead poisening?!

 

[Smellydog]

See, ignore where I say valuable input, focus on the negative.
Are you sure you don’t have lead poisening?!

The whole history of British oppression towards shooting folk IS negative and I didn't start it.
Please point out an act of parliament that was good for shooting?

 

[Mike L]

Treaty of Vereeniging

Gave us plenty of shooting