Lead ammunition restrictions - government announcement
- Thread starter Conor O'Gorman
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Smellydog
Well-Known Member
Irrelevant.Treaty of Vereeniging
Gave us plenty of shooting
Merlyn
Well-Known Member
I turned 86 a week ago. I have been involved in shooting all my life. Six-year-old with air rifle, army cadets, army (Regular), vermin, fowling, game, game-keeper, stalking and, now, deer management.
I have not read every post on the subject of the lead ban. I don't have much more time left on this beautiful thing we call Earth, but what time I have I would rather spend out in the field rather than looking at a screen.
However, from what I have read, there is very little that I have not heard before either in the years running up to this ban or the very similar rumpus that erupted over the fowling lead ban of several years ago. We dedicated fowlers of the time, with the help of gun manufacturers and ammunition makers, got over that little piece of nastiness OK, and dedicated riflemen will get over this latest problem.
The government has made its decision. There seems very little anyone can do to change their minds on the subject. What happened in the past stays in the past.
So let's just all work together to solving the problems that we face.
This continuing row of who said what and who did this, and what was really meant by this and that, is driving my old brain down into my shoulders.
Let's see more pages about what lead free ammunition will suit which rifle or shotgun, and less slanging....
PLEASE!
I have not read every post on the subject of the lead ban. I don't have much more time left on this beautiful thing we call Earth, but what time I have I would rather spend out in the field rather than looking at a screen.
However, from what I have read, there is very little that I have not heard before either in the years running up to this ban or the very similar rumpus that erupted over the fowling lead ban of several years ago. We dedicated fowlers of the time, with the help of gun manufacturers and ammunition makers, got over that little piece of nastiness OK, and dedicated riflemen will get over this latest problem.
The government has made its decision. There seems very little anyone can do to change their minds on the subject. What happened in the past stays in the past.
So let's just all work together to solving the problems that we face.
This continuing row of who said what and who did this, and what was really meant by this and that, is driving my old brain down into my shoulders.
Let's see more pages about what lead free ammunition will suit which rifle or shotgun, and less slanging....
PLEASE!
timbrayford
Well-Known Member
Therein lies the problem, a lot of the proposed alternatives are not readily available, if you shoot with anything smaller than a 12 bore you are on a hiding to nothing. Again, with the rifle stuff it's very much a matter of trial and error, e.g with my .243 58gr Barnes forms a tight clover leaf group (subject to firer!), whilst 58 gr Hornady projectiles tumble. Tried the Hornady in a friends rifle and they performed faultlessly.
But to reiterate, if you can't get hold of the non-lead stuff you can't use it, and that to my mind has been the major stumbling block since 2020.
Conor O'Gorman
Well-Known Member
If you moved from BASC to the NGO why would you focus your criticism of the voluntary transition away from lead shot for live quarry on BASC that both BASC and NGO have supported? Moreover, the NGO response to the December 2024 HSE recommendations to the government was: "Lead exposure poses serious risks to wildlife, domestic animals, and humans, particularly children. This move supports conservation and aligns with existing efforts across Europe". I don't recall any comments from you on that NGO response? Why is that so?
Conor O'Gorman
Well-Known Member
Indeed, and for those yet to read it, the BASC FAQs on the government's announcement are here:
Lead ammunition restrictions - your questions answered
Read our answers to questions about the planned lead ammunition legislation and what it means for shotgun, rifle and airgun shooters.
basc.org.uk
Defra briefing and draft regs:
UK REACH restriction for lead in ammunition, 27 June 2025
Decision on a restriction proposal for lead in ammunition under UK REACH, including a draft amendment.
timbrayford
Well-Known Member
Conor, you appear to be looking for an argument for arguments sake, and not for the first time either!
I think he asked a fair question.
And we would all(including America and the computer World) be speaking French if the Battle of Blenheim had gone the other way.
timbrayford
Well-Known Member
Smellydog
Well-Known Member
The question wasn't asked of me, and is not relevant to me, as I am not a member of the NGO, and therefore I cannot answer it.
But I would be interested in hearing the answer to the question posed by Conor in post #506
timbrayford
Well-Known Member
Largely due to inadequately drawn up laws in England which made it lawful to shoot a pheasant with lead shot on a drive but illegal to shoot a duck with lead shot from the same peg on the same drive. Scotland thankfully avoided going down that road so had the shot ducks not been sampled from England no offence would have taken place.
As regards the contention that lead shot poisoning was “pretty irrelevant “to the argument against the continuation of lead shot use WAKE UP , did you miss the WWT restaurant based advert drawing attention to the perceived toxicity of lead shot in game recipes and all the pro restriction posts on forums focused on the detriment to human health.
Dunwater ,your biased interpretation of the issue makes it extremely difficult to take your posts seriously. Instead of generalising could you be more specific about the lead ammunition’s impact on the environment ie quantify the harm caused so that impact of its use can be put into perspective. You’re obviously convinced , if you could share that data then you would be more likely to convince others of your case for justifying the abolition of lead shot use.
Perhaps start with grounds for justifying the clay shooting lead ban where there is no quarry consumption to contend with and shooting is carried out over a comparatively small area of ground most of which will see far less wildlife activity.
That common sense observation, mirrored throughout the UK completely escapes the single issue zealots who are more concerned with putting obstacles in the way of shooting than any reasoned argument for minimising the risk to the environment through lead shot use rather than eradicating it.
Classic deflection to manipulate any posts away from his own performance online which contained very little other than pro restriction content ,relying on minuscule lead shot ingestion rates with no data available to gauge impact of such ingestion and littered with emotive tall tales of minefields of lead etc etc.All the while contending that BASC had always opposed further lead shot restrictions. In practice contrary to BASC policy he undermined the opposition view on further lead shot restrictions.
By dwelling on what are in reality irrelevancies he escapes having to justify his earlier role in the debate.
The past maybe in the past but just as is common with Ireland and the Republican movement we too ,opposed to unjustified and unfair legislation but this time surrounding lead shot restrictions, will have long memories.
dedicated wild fowlers did use non-toxic shot, it is because the law was inadequately written and game shoots in England carried on using lead shot on a duck drive that the HSE now do not trust us and allow lead shot to be used on clay grounds.
Basically badly managed game shoots who did not comply with the use of non-toxic shot have shafted clay shooting.
Heym SR20
Well-Known Member
There is a lot of whining about lack of availability on lead free ammo.
For the last few years its been voluntary. Some dealers have a good selection, with a good customer base who keep returning, and their customers buy in bulk and come from all over. Some dealers with customers who and mandated to use lead free have obtained it and reluctantly sell it. Some want nothing to do with non toxic. Some dealers will thrive, others will quietly shut their doors.
The last major switch from lead to unleaded was petrol back in the 1990’s. There were lots of concerns about British leyland engines not being suitable to run on unleaded. Minor retuning and an additive ReDex and most carried on before. Many didn’t bother and just filled up with unleaded. All those Metros, Maestro’s and other 70’s and 80’s ended up in the scrap yard once they had rusted out. Mostly engines would still have been good. Land Rovers didn’t care what fuel you used, and what would become classics carried on with unleaded and an additive.
Garages that previously had never sold unleaded now sold unleaded and we carried on driving.
Today with emissions regs etc we live in a much cleaner cities and towns and no longer get smogs of old. Most cars are of current generations, in the same way that most shooting clays or game use modern guns.
A few still love their classic cars and use them them everyday or on high days and holidays. Some completely rebuild with valve seats suitable for unleaded, others just use them as they are and when they are truly tired pass them on to someone else to provide the love.
For the price of a new steel proofed Turkish gun, or a couple of good days phaesant shooting, you can buy several hundred bismuth cartridges In 12, 16, 20, 28 and 3” 410. You might have to order them from those who have stock and then lay them down.
For a lot less money you can currently buy 2 1/2” steel cartridges in 12, 16 and 20 bore. I bought a slab of Lyalvale Precision Steel 16 in a 65mm cartridge 18 months ago. I am using them on my walked up days and have plenty for this season.
As for my rifles - 223, 243, 7x57 and 7x65r have loads for them all - a mix of factory and non toxic that all work perfectly well enough for any legal deer or fox on the UK. The youngest of the last three is 30 years old. I could simplify things and just buy a modern T3x in 308 and use any of the widely available 308 non lead cartridges on the market and that are supplied in bulk to all the large estates and government agencies - but what’s the fun in that.
I haven’t a clue how they perform at 300 on deer as I don’t shoot deer at that distance. I know with all of them I can put them onto a gong at that range, but I am not a good enough shot to do so regularly. But looking at the data, I am sure they would have a reasonable terminal effect.
I am sure that many guns will fall into obsolescence over the next few years. Mostly this will be because they just get worn out and rather than repair / rebuild, they will just be replaced. I suspect many cartridges will become obsolete and others will come to the fore. We don’t see many 264 Win Mags these days. But the 6.5 PRC which pretty much mimics its performance is all the rage these days.
For the last few years its been voluntary. Some dealers have a good selection, with a good customer base who keep returning, and their customers buy in bulk and come from all over. Some dealers with customers who and mandated to use lead free have obtained it and reluctantly sell it. Some want nothing to do with non toxic. Some dealers will thrive, others will quietly shut their doors.
The last major switch from lead to unleaded was petrol back in the 1990’s. There were lots of concerns about British leyland engines not being suitable to run on unleaded. Minor retuning and an additive ReDex and most carried on before. Many didn’t bother and just filled up with unleaded. All those Metros, Maestro’s and other 70’s and 80’s ended up in the scrap yard once they had rusted out. Mostly engines would still have been good. Land Rovers didn’t care what fuel you used, and what would become classics carried on with unleaded and an additive.
Garages that previously had never sold unleaded now sold unleaded and we carried on driving.
Today with emissions regs etc we live in a much cleaner cities and towns and no longer get smogs of old. Most cars are of current generations, in the same way that most shooting clays or game use modern guns.
A few still love their classic cars and use them them everyday or on high days and holidays. Some completely rebuild with valve seats suitable for unleaded, others just use them as they are and when they are truly tired pass them on to someone else to provide the love.
For the price of a new steel proofed Turkish gun, or a couple of good days phaesant shooting, you can buy several hundred bismuth cartridges In 12, 16, 20, 28 and 3” 410. You might have to order them from those who have stock and then lay them down.
For a lot less money you can currently buy 2 1/2” steel cartridges in 12, 16 and 20 bore. I bought a slab of Lyalvale Precision Steel 16 in a 65mm cartridge 18 months ago. I am using them on my walked up days and have plenty for this season.
As for my rifles - 223, 243, 7x57 and 7x65r have loads for them all - a mix of factory and non toxic that all work perfectly well enough for any legal deer or fox on the UK. The youngest of the last three is 30 years old. I could simplify things and just buy a modern T3x in 308 and use any of the widely available 308 non lead cartridges on the market and that are supplied in bulk to all the large estates and government agencies - but what’s the fun in that.
I haven’t a clue how they perform at 300 on deer as I don’t shoot deer at that distance. I know with all of them I can put them onto a gong at that range, but I am not a good enough shot to do so regularly. But looking at the data, I am sure they would have a reasonable terminal effect.
I am sure that many guns will fall into obsolescence over the next few years. Mostly this will be because they just get worn out and rather than repair / rebuild, they will just be replaced. I suspect many cartridges will become obsolete and others will come to the fore. We don’t see many 264 Win Mags these days. But the 6.5 PRC which pretty much mimics its performance is all the rage these days.
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