Lead ammunition restrictions - government announcement

[Grant.N]

My question is, will they make an exception for 28g & .410 ? As they have done with small calibre rifles.
The amount of game and shots fired in these calibres compared to the 12g & 20g must surely be negligible. At least then it is more a workable soloution for the small bore enthusiasts.
I guess we will have to wait for the fine detail to emerge.

 

[jall55]

My question is, will they make an exception for 28g & .410 ? As they have done with small calibre rifles.
The amount of game and shots fired in these calibres compared to the 12g & 20g must surely be negligible. At least then it is more a workable soloution for the small bore enthusiasts.
I guess we will have to wait for the fine detail to emerge.

I doubt it - where would that start and end ?
The man who enjoys a walk about shoot would think he should also be exempt ?

 

[Tim.243]

Volunteering to move away from lead shot for live quarry shooting was and is your choice. Nobody has been forcing you to do anything. However, if you disagreed with the strategy on this all those years ago did you make representations to BASC Council about your concerns? There was an online AGM on 11 July 2020 for example.

Just imagine the support for BASC if they had followed the lines in which it stays the same as it has been, it would have been like David & Goliath
No different to sub postmasters taking on the Post Office who insisted the "Data" was correct.
Small voices can be heard and changes made but it takes a lot of conviction to make a case and the limiting factor would have been peoples job/pensions on the line. However jogging along and not making waves is what this country is about these days for the sake of a company car and good pension.

 

[timbrayford]

My question is, will they make an exception for 28g & .410 ? As they have done with small calibre rifles.
The amount of game and shots fired in these calibres compared to the 12g & 20g must surely be negligible. At least then it is more a workable soloution for the small bore enthusiasts.
I guess we will have to wait for the fine detail to emerge.

Actually anything less than 12 bore is not well catered for, and the contribution made by muzzle loaders to any environmental issue must be absolutely miniscule

 

[timbrayford]

A quick google shows that Eley Biowads were being promoted as early as 2019.

And so it might have but "promoted" doesn't equate to "available" which in reality is the issue that many of us will face going forward

 

[timbrayford]

Just imagine the support for BASC if they had followed the lines in which it stays the same as it has been, it would have been like David & Goliath
No different to sub postmasters taking on the Post Office who insisted the "Data" was correct.
Small voices can be heard and changes made but it takes a lot of conviction to make a case and the limiting factor would have been peoples job/pensions on the line. However jogging along and not making waves is what this country is about these days for the sake of a company car and good pension.

Absolutely!

 

[Smellydog]

But why do you think that SD ? Im the least interested in cartridges of anyone i know really - historically if it fits in the chamber i use it - many / most game shots - and indeed pigeon shooters are obsessed with shot size / speed / etc etc - look at the threads on here regarding heads - calibres etc

A quick google shows that Eley Biowads were being promoted as early as 2019.

If nobody bothered during the so called transition period why should they care about the wad in the future? They won't.
Point above by @Basil H !

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

Just imagine the support for BSAC if they had followed the lines in which it stays the same as it has been, it would have been like David & Goliath
No different to sub postmasters taking on the Post Office who insisted the "Data" was correct.
Small voices can be heard and changes made but it takes a lot of conviction to make a case and the limiting factor would have been peoples job/pensions on the line. However jogging along and not making waves is what this country is about these days for the sake of a company car and good pension.

BASC does have very good support - don't let a few loud voices on forums convince you otherwise. Even when BASC's strategy was 'no evidence no change' some of the same folk on here looking back at that era with rose tinted glasses were the very ones using social media to attack BASC as 'anti-lead', some continuing to blame BASC for the 1999-2003 lead shot regulations that the UK government implemented after signing the international AEWA inter-government treaty. There will always be a minority with entrenched views and axes to grind whatever BASC does. That's just the way of the world inside the shooting community bubble. Outside that bubble one has to consider the views of other audiences - the general public, the media and the UK governments, and arguing for the status quo on lead ammunition is simply not credible. At the height of the 'denial era' one organisation went so far as to declare in a press release that "lead makes you beautiful and healthy'. Best to look ahead - and no legislation has been tabled yet.

 

[nun_hunter]

Simple - target shooters abide by the law.

Hunters - again abide by the law. If hunters are shown to be getting around the ban as you suggest, they will simply prohibit reloading.

Comments like this are just unhelpful and give yet more opportunities to challenge what we do.

Edit: thinking about it - don’t need to ban reloading, just ban the sale of primers and powder unless you are an RFD who is manufacturing ammo on a commercial basis.

As to ranges and policing of use of ammunition, it is and will be the range operator that will be liable - and it will be the club officers or company directors that will take this responsibility. For hunting it will be the landowner / occupiers, just as they are with any other form of pollution.

Why is an unhelpful question?

I wasn't suggesting anyone do anything unlawful, I was asking how banning the sale of lead ammunition would impact reloaders and anyone who carries out target practice, reloading testing, or zeroing anywhere other than an approved HO range.

 

[Smellydog]

I doubt it - where would that start and end ?
The man who enjoys a walk about shoot would think he should also be exempt ?

Huh, he could walk about with his lead ban exempt 410, what a lovely notion. Or a muzzleloader .
I'm sorry but the notion "where will that end" is not a good reason to penalise others is it. I mean if that's how we are to live how would that end? Or homes become our prisons, for our own good etc!

 

[Terry2016]

Have you got the actual text of the DEFRA release?

I’m looking to see whether they’ve accepted exemptions for small calibre centrefire, rimfire and airgun?

small calibers below .243 are exempt

 

[Terry2016]

Is it correct that eg .22lr will be exempt?

If someone knows factually either way that would be helpful to know.

Thanks
ES

yes all calibers below .243 - 6.17mm are exempt

 

[Terry2016]

Trying to excempt the 243 and 22 C/F for deer is a fools errand, it would be so easy to change the minium calibre to 6.5mm.

Lots of views on the 243 with both lead and non-lead on SD, so lets not repeat them.

this

 

[Terry2016]

air gun pellets for live quarry exemption but what about for plinking or target shooting?

exempt

 

[Terry2016]

I’m a little confused. In this announcement, BASC is reported to be supportive of banning lead ammunition and aware of an impending lead ban for years, but has been repeatedly assuring its members that it was opposed to such a ban and was committed to opposing any further restrictions. How does BASC account for giving mutually incompatible messages to different audiences - effectively assuring members it was representing their interests while working with regulators to oppose shooters’ interests?

BASC and 8 other organisations wanted a voluntary transition for live quarry shooting with shotguns. not for clay shooting and not for rifles. , they have challenged to ensure small caliber rifles and airguns were not restricted, you can read there documents on the website,

 

[Tim.243]

BASC does have very good support - don't let a few loud voices on forums convince you otherwise. Even when BASC's strategy was 'no evidence no change' some of the same folk on here looking back at that era with rose tinted glasses were the very ones using social media to attack BASC as 'anti-lead', some continuing to blame BASC for the 1999-2003 lead shot regulations that the UK government implemented after signing the international AEWA inter-government treaty. There will always be a minority with entrenched views and axes to grind whatever BASC does. That's just the way of the world inside the shooting community bubble. Outside that bubble one has to consider the views of other audiences - the general public, the media and the UK governments, and arguing for the status quo on lead ammunition is simply not credible. At the height of the 'denial era' one organisation went so far as to declare in a press release that "lead makes you beautiful and healthy'. Best to look ahead - and no legislation has been tabled yet.

That is the problem right there! Worrying about what others think, if the greater consideration is what you have just posted then you are wasting your time replying to "us" as it is a "shooting forum" There is a % scale with cases and it will have to be over 51% to even be considered then a panel will look at it. Even the poorest person in an open and shut case get represented. I don't feel I have been represented just let down.
The judgement has been made with the sentence to be handed out in 2029.

 

[Smellydog]

BASC and 8 other organisations wanted a voluntary transition for live quarry shooting with shotguns. not for clay shooting and not for rifles. , they have challenged to ensure small caliber rifles and airguns were not restricted, you can read there documents on the website,

But not muzzleloaders and parliament hasn't had it's say yet!

 

[Liveonce]

Try those Eley ones SD and see what you think - i do get however the question about what they are broken down in to - the web says something that is natural broken down by micro organisms - but i wonder what that is ?

Bioammo comment a few years ago, we as consumers should know what we are buying, just like when you buy food:-

It is surprising that companies with a long history in the ammunition market have not spent money developing new environmentally friendly materials. The solution they have provided has been to buy PVA wads from the plastic industry and say that since they disappear quickly they do not pollute, which is totally false. That you do not see it does not mean that it is not there, it has simply changed its state from solid to liquid.

For a material to be biodegradable, there must be an organism that can feed on it and transform it into biomass. No organism has evolved to date to be able to swallow synthetic polymers such as plastic or PVA and what is currently being done is to deceive the market and the end user, who are very lost in this matter.

In addition to contaminating, PVA wads have very poor ballistics and as soon as there is a humid environment (as in the UK) they weld to the wall of the plastic sheaths causing overpressures and accidents.

Why are there brands that use this material? Simply because they have no other solution or have invested in research.

Magic does not exist. There is no material that supports the pressure of a shot, that does not contaminate and that also disappears in hours.

For example, cardboard cartridges are an equally valid solution as Bioammo's since there are bacteria that feed on cellulose and convert it into biomass. How long does this phenomenon take to occur? It just depends on the level of bacteria. In Spain, for example, a Bioammo case at ground level could take up to 2 years to disappear. This process is greatly accelerated in environments with a higher level of bacteria such as a landfill or locations with more humidity. The exact time? As I have already told you, it depends on many factors.

The last question is the following: Do you want it not to be seen or not to contaminate?

Ramiro Guardiola

Director España, Portugal y Latinoamérica

CRO Spain, Portugal & Latin America

+34 619 24 25 73

Hidalgo

BioAmmo
Ctra. Santa Maria la Real de Nieva-Nava de la Asunción.

SG 342, km 44. Santa María la Real de Nieva.

40440 - Segovia, España.

 

[Terry2016]

this from the GTA. exemption just for .22 rimfire is that the definition of small calibre bullets ??????


Stephen Jolly, chief executive of the Gun Trade Association, commented: “The GTA was instrumental in getting airgun pellets and .22 rimfire exempted from the ban. However, while we understand the rationale for lead restrictions in general, the shortening of the transition period is deeply unhelpful. It is likely to prove problematic for ammunition manufacturers whose job is to provide safe and practical solutions for shooters

GTA need to read the link enfieldspare posted as it’s not just .22 rimfire see section 35 of the document

But not muzzleloaders and parliament hasn't had it's say yet!

Muzzle loaders on ranges can continue, if they are smaller than 6.17mm they can continue on live quarry, if they are using shot they will need to change to bismuth, alternative shot to steel (with a cup)

 

[Heym SR20]

Why is an unhelpful question?

I wasn't suggesting anyone do anything unlawful, I was asking how banning the sale of lead ammunition would impact reloaders and anyone who carries out target practice, reloading testing, or zeroing anywhere other than an approved HO range.

Because if the law states that you can only use lead cored ammo on a HO approved range, with facilities and procedures to capture and subsequently dispose of the lead, then using such ammo anywhere else would be a breach of the law.

You may still to buy such ammunition and its components.

Or put it another way. Yesterday I was testing 223 Lead cored FMJ ammo shooting into the sand butts run by a Scottish Government approved club. I could have decided to go deer stalking later on with that ammo and rifle. However the Deer Acts and Orders make it mandatory to use an expanding bullet and if on anything bigger than roe, a minimum of 80gn, and if I had done so I would have been breaking the law.

When the new laws come into play, everyone will have a choice. Obey them. Or choose to disobey, putting your FAC, deer stalking permissions etc etc at risk.