Lead ammunition restrictions - government announcement

[Conor O'Gorman]

Are you a paid employee of BASC? If so do you in defence of BASC's dubious stance on this and other issues have more of an "axe to grind" with those of us lass than impressed with BASC's performance?

Yes, and a SD member for 13 years. I see you recently joined the forum and would be happy to have a chat with you on the phone about your concerns about BASC. I will PM you and let's take it from there.

 

[25 Sharps]

Can someone direct me to some copper bullets ( not ammunition ) for my 3030 please?
I can't find any.

Hornady do 140 & 160 gr monoflex for the 30-30, I’ve some on order, if they’re as good as in my 45-70 they’ll do the job well.

 

[timbrayford]

Then why look for an argument with such unwarranted comments about BASC and personal comments about John and myself in this thread? What I think many will be interested in is an explanation from yourself and @hendrix's rifle about why both of you as NGO members would spend time on here criticising BASC about a voluntary transition away from lead shot for live quarry shooting that the NGO supported and especially given that the NGO response to the December 2024 HSE recommendations to the government was: "Lead exposure poses serious risks to wildlife, domestic animals, and humans, particularly children. This move supports conservation and aligns with existing efforts across Europe". Do you or @hendrix's rifle support your organisation's position on lead ammunition?

For the third time you've already had my response!

 

[Smellydog]

Hornady do 140 & 160 gr monoflex for the 30-30, I’ve some on order, if they’re as good as in my 45-70 they’ll do the job well.

Thank you.
I've just read good things about them on the Marlin forum.
Now got to rinse my mouth out because I said Marlin, DOH, I said it again

 

[Dunwaters]

What about the “ constant attacks on his organisation” based on their /his perceived inadequate defence of shooting sports best interests rather than ignorance .
Anyone with a bit of backbone would choose to counter claims of shortcomings long before now instead we have deflection and turning a blind eye to legitimate concerns.
The “total refusal to accept scientific evidence “is possibly due to the failure to provide scientific evidence and produce context that makes a sound case for justifying further restrictions.
As stated earlier considering the concerns of the general public media and UK government seems to take precedence over representing shooters best interests.
BASC is often touted as “the voice of shooting “ when did it morph into the voice of the general public, media and the UK government ?
That you choose to state that you would nominate C O’G for a Nobel prize in persistence speaks volumes would that be for persistently ignoring points made and questions asked because if it is I’ll gladly second it.

You, sir are a particularly fine example of the problem.
You consistently attack one of the organisations that represents you, you consistently deny or reject out of hand the scientific evidence placed in front of you and you indulge yourself with constant personal attacks on an officer of one of your representative bodies.
Not once have you offered an alternative strategy and now it’s too late.
The deal is done, the democratically elected government has made a decision based on the evidence submitted.
Your 20/20 hindsight is irrelevant. Had you seen fit to engage earlier, things may have gone otherwise, but you didn’t, so suck democracy up.
Your government has made a decision, BASC involved themselves in the process, they didn’t totally lose the argument, they definitely softened the impact of the proposed changes, the starting proposition was a total lead ban.
Cowboy up, suck it up and stop the “ if only “ hindsight arguments.
You did yourselves far more harm with BREXIT on a far narrower margin.

 

[DS Mad]

For me and a lot of other shooters Its the cost My 6.5x55 RWS green £65 to £80.. Eley Blade £55 to £65 Shotgun cartridges Eley eco wad £13.50 a box That's a lot of pigeon shooters packing it in. Then there's the reloading.. Barnes £63 for a box of 50.. And before you say the prices will come down when there mass producing them they will not.
For shooting guys on a budget its worrying times ahead.

 

[Dunwaters]

Thanks for TRYING but I'll be ok

Actually I've had a grand afternoon. Whinging and shooting all at the same time.
I noticed the pigeons using a grand old oak and thought I'll get under that in the shade and a breeze.
I used a cheap air rifle. No deeks, no blind building and no expensive cartridges. And no plastic wads!

I'm getting an alternative for the 3030.
On reflection the muzzleloaders may have to go. Very sad but I have had near 30 years fun with them and what I don't know about them isn't worth knowing!

I don't want to loose the 17 hmr, I use it a lot. I'd drop the 22 first! So that's up in the air still.
The 410, lord knows, it'll be useless I guess.

Depending on how it turns out most my shotguns will go. Probably just keep one with the flur de Lye's stamp and a 3" sxs.

So there go. I'm resigning to the fact but truthfully I've enjoyed this debate. Think I only lost it twice, that's good for me!
View attachment 428306

Dont be in too much of a rush with the muzzle loader, after all, how many shots do you fire in a season?
I wont give up even if I have to pound stuff over the head with a stick, I love it, all of it, from wake up to bedtime and everything in between.
Theres a horde of rabbits in the garden, the dogs need feeding, I’ve 2 guns to wipe and it’s either beer or fishing afterwards.
Stay safe, stay positive. It could be much worse.

 

[Nimrod1960]

Agggh !
Enough enough, if you don’t want to be a member of BASC, its not compulsory.
If you are and want to change it, stand for election and put that in your “manifesto”.
If you want to rant at your MP, go ahead.

Stop looking backwards, get innovating and deal with the here now and tomorrow.

All I want to hear now on this subject is how people are doing with the alternatives.

All that experimenting must be a re loaders dream.

Conor, I admire your patience and ability to soak it up, good on you.

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

And the chilled Pimm's glad hand receptions at the Game fair and the driven days for MPs at Catton Hall. Don't forget those...and paid eventually from the members' subs.

More comments on BASC. You might at the 4th (maybe more) time of asking (before disappearing again), update us as a CPSA member on the latest CPSA updates on this topic, having stated that you moved from BASC to CPSA because of the voluntary transition away from lead shot for live quarry shooting.

In 2020, the CPSA stated “We at the CPSA have been involved in the discussions with the game-shooting organisations and whilst we understand their decision to voluntarily remove lead from their sport, this will have no effect on clay-target shooting.”

The last CPSA update I am aware of is in response to the HSE recommendations in December 2024 stating: "In early 2025 we will be setting up a working group of CPSA board members, ground operators & partners from the gun trade, to plan this potential key change for our sport in the coming years."

There has been no CPSA update since then nor on Thursday's government announcement that I am aware of.

As a CPSA member, rather than continuing your comments about BASC, have you any comments on the above and/or updates from the CPSA to share with us?

 

[Apthorpe]

The Society and College of Radiographers informed BASC that to their knowledge there have been no reported incidents of harm caused by ingested steel shot during an MRI scan in the UK. However, the steel shot could cause image distortion during the MRI scan and for that reason if you think you have ingested steel shot before your scan you should let the staff in the MRI department know before your appointment. I don't see what there is to be concerned about as regards MRIs and steel shot in light of advice from medical experts. Also, worth noting that there have been no recorded incidents of harm caused by ingested steel shot during an MRI scan in Denmark or USA where steel shot has been used for decades for live quarry shooting.

As for broken teeth/fillings, any type of shot can damage teeth, including steel, lead, bismuth, TSS etc. and dentists in countries that have already phased out lead have not seen an increase in tooth damage due to biting other shot types. I have broken fillings on pork scratchings but never on steel, TSS or lead shot!

In essence, you're making the precise same arguments in favour of the safety of steel shot as you are in flat denial of when it comes to the absence of proper evidence of lead shot doing harm.
Should I conclude A) that both lead and steel shot respectively are harmless? Or B) that you don't accept a word of what you've just written?

 

[Apthorpe]

When this ban is in effect, and .410 and 28 bore shotugins are no longer viable, what shotguns do our shooting orgs think that children are going to learn to shoot with before they are large enough for 20 bores?

 

[Ruger#1]

You, sir are a particularly fine example of the problem.
You consistently attack one of the organisations that represents you, you consistently deny or reject out of hand the scientific evidence placed in front of you and you indulge yourself with constant personal attacks on an officer of one of your representative bodies.
Not once have you offered an alternative strategy and now it’s too late.
The deal is done, the democratically elected government has made a decision based on the evidence submitted.
Your 20/20 hindsight is irrelevant. Had you seen fit to engage earlier, things may have gone otherwise, but you didn’t, so suck democracy up.
Your government has made a decision, BASC involved themselves in the process, they didn’t totally lose the argument, they definitely softened the impact of the proposed changes, the starting proposition was a total lead ban.
Cowboy up, suck it up and stop the “ if only “ hindsight arguments.
You did yourselves far more harm with BREXIT on a far narrower margin.

So no reply to the points raised, not surprised actually.
The problem isn’t people pointing out the shortcomings of the campaign for the continued use of lead shot where environmental impact was negligible. Remember BASC policy was to oppose further restrictions and their campaign to do so was a failure. Part of this was due to their employees promoting the case for restriction when BASC’s own policy was to oppose it part was the acceptance that the call for restrictions had merit.
I would contend that you Sir are more of a problem by failing to hold BASC to account for their shortcomings and more than willing to accept restrictions for a quiet life.

 

[25 Sharps]

Thank you.
I've just read good things about them on the Marlin forum.
Now got to rinse my mouth out because I said Marlin, DOH, I said it again

I’ve got some 140s on order from reloading solutions, hoping they’re better than the factory. Although I’ve take taken a roe buck and minty buck cleanly with them in the marlin this weekend

 

[Ruger#1]

wont give up even if I have to pound stuff over the head with a stick

Why doesn’t that surprise me ,
I wonder what the general public, media and uk government would make of it.

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

I've heard him on the radio and you have it spot on.

Frank, hello, it's been a while. It's also been some time since I have been on the radio.

If memory serves me well the last time would have been 2023 on Farming Today Radio 4 highlighting concerns about debanking of shooting clubs and businesses, later that evening live on GB News also on that topic, Nigel Farage was most supportive to our cause, the problem since been largely resolved by BASC working with the banks and UK Finance.

Your radio reference may however be to a Farming Today Radio 4 from 2021 at the outset of the HSE lead ammunition review where I was interviewed by BBC together with Debbie Pain?

Wild Justice director Mark Avery had a pop at me about that 2021 interview in his blog here:

Farming Today on lead – Mark Avery

markavery.info

Wild Justice director Ruth Tingay continues to have a pop at me/BASC for labelling Cambridge University sponsored research on the prevalence of lead shot in oven-ready pheasants, that was part-funded by the RSPB and Wild Justice, as 'pseudoscience' in 2023.

Press release from Defra: Toxic lead ammunition banned to protect Britain’s countryside

Press release from Defra (10 July 2025): TOXIC LEAD AMMUNITION BANNED TO PROTECT BRITAIN’S COUNTRYSIDE New ban on use of lead in ammunition to protect iconic wildlife and clean up the nation’…

raptorpersecutionuk.org

The article that irked them is here:

Poor methodology undermines validity of game meat research

Dr Conor O'Gorman discusses BASC's challenge to a study part-funded by the RSPB and Wild Justice on lead shot in oven-ready pheasants.

basc.org.uk

It bemuses me to be criticised by those that seek to end all recreational uses of lead ammunition and those that seek to retain the status quo.

 

[Ruger#1]

It bemuses me to be criticised by those that seek to end all recreational uses of lead ammunition and those that seek to retain the status quo.

Don’t forget criticism from those open to restrictions based solely on the extent of environmental impact not determined by general public, media or uk government complications ie criticism based solely on performance.

 

[Liveonce]

Are you saying the Eley Pro Eco Wad does not breakdown then ?

it breaks down the question is what remains harmful to the environment.

what remains after the water soluble type when you can no longer see them.

That’s what’s Ramiro Guardiola is asking?

 

[Frank Homes]

Frank, hello, it's been a while. It's also been some time since I have been on the radio.

If memory serves me well the last time would have been 2023 on Farming Today Radio 4 highlighting concerns about debanking of shooting clubs and businesses, later that evening live on GB News also on that topic, Nigel Farage was most supportive to our cause, the problem since been largely resolved by BASC working with the banks and UK Finance.

Your radio reference may however be to a Farming Today Radio 4 from 2021 at the outset of the HSE lead ammunition review where I was interviewed by BBC together with Debbie Pain?

Wild Justice director Mark Avery had a pop at me about that 2021 interview in his blog here:

Farming Today on lead – Mark Avery

markavery.info

Wild Justice director Ruth Tingay continues to have a pop at me/BASC for labelling Cambridge University sponsored research on the prevalence of lead shot in oven-ready pheasants, that was part-funded by the RSPB and Wild Justice, as 'pseudoscience' in 2023.

Press release from Defra: Toxic lead ammunition banned to protect Britain’s countryside

Press release from Defra (10 July 2025): TOXIC LEAD AMMUNITION BANNED TO PROTECT BRITAIN’S COUNTRYSIDE New ban on use of lead in ammunition to protect iconic wildlife and clean up the nation’…

raptorpersecutionuk.org

The article that irked them is here:

Poor methodology undermines validity of game meat research

Dr Conor O'Gorman discusses BASC's challenge to a study part-funded by the RSPB and Wild Justice on lead shot in oven-ready pheasants.

basc.org.uk

It bemuses me to be criticised by those that seek to end all recreational uses of lead ammunition and those that seek to retain the status quo.

Not sure which interview it was but you came over as unnnecessarily argumentative and it stuck in my memory.

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

In essence, you're making the precise same arguments in favour of the safety of steel shot as you are in flat denial of when it comes to the absence of proper evidence of lead shot doing harm.
Should I conclude A) that both lead and steel shot respectively are harmless? Or B) that you don't accept a word of what you've just written?

Steel shot won't rip out of your gut akin to 'Alien 1' during a MRI, neither will lead shot. Gun shot of all types might break your fillings if you inadvertently chomp down on it. As for harm to human health I am not aware of any cases of humans dying from lead shot or steel shot ingestion, but evidence and societal concerns are growing for sub-lethal impacts on lead ammo. For birds ingesting lead shot its a different matter, as you know, and the evidence of those lethal and sub-lethal impacts on myriad bird species worldwide is well documented, and goes back decades, and indeed 100 years for some species. As things stand, you have until 2029 to move away from lead shot for live quarry shooting in England, Wales and Scotland.

 

[jall55]

it breaks down the question is what remains harmful to the environment.

what remains after the water soluble type when you can no longer see them.

That’s what’s Ramiro Guardiola is asking?

I think the bioammo he refers to though is different to the Eley stuff that is virtually gone in 24/48 hours ?
Into what im not sure now however

Any idea Conor ? @Conor O'Gorman