Lead ammunition restrictions - government announcement

[Conor O'Gorman]

Not sure which interview it was but you came over as unnnecessarily argumentative and it stuck in my memory.

Thank you. Perhaps it was a different interview.

 

[Liveonce]

Correct, but the NRA took on board the job of devising safety, design, and maintenance standards for privately owned ranges many years ago when the Army dropped this role and restricted itself to its own ranges. This includes backstop design, materials, and maintenance including keeping records of rounds fired and when deleading is required and done. Club compliance is necessary in this, as in other NRA codes (such as the recently instituted one on handloading practices) to be able to buy and be protected by the NRA's liability insurance arrangements. As I understand it, any club operating a range following these practices and keeping work records will automatically have their range accepted on the HSE approved ranges list as advised to it by the NRA.

Many clubs don't own a fullbore range of course and hire capacity on Landmark operated MoD ranges which presumably will all go on any approved list without issues.

Where I can see problems arising may be those clubs owning private short distance ranges which are primarily used for .22 rimfire (exempt), but are also partly or wholly licensed for lower-power revolver cartridge calibre rifles. They probably also comply with the NRA range standards regime for high-power fullbore rifle use. I don't know, no longer shooting on any such facility myself, but I'm sure there are forum members involved in running such clubs/ranges who do, and can comment on this. In the unlikely event of their not already being NRA standards compliant, they may opt to drop revolver calibres and restrict themselves to .22 shooting.

indeed the NRA never one to turn down a money making opportunity.

The fact is there are plenty of privately operated ranges either commercial or Clubs that have nothing to do with the NRA or NSRA. And no legal obligation to have anything to do with them.
One such local range has clay shooting airgun shooting and FAC firearms all using the same area of land but come the lead ban airgun pellets and small calibre rifle bullets can lay at will on the ground, but .243 and above must be removed and lead shot banned, Absolutely stupid, given also the many years of lead shot use will not be removed, mind you if you walk the ground you never see the shot. Unlike Bisley clay shooting centre where the shot is on the surface between the pebbles, or was several years ago.

 

[25 Sharps]

For me and a lot of other shooters Its the cost My 6.5x55 RWS green £65 to £80.. Eley Blade £55 to £65 Shotgun cartridges Eley eco wad £13.50 a box That's a lot of pigeon shooters packing it in. Then there's the reloading.. Barnes £63 for a box of 50.. And before you say the prices will come down when there mass producing them they will not.
For shooting guys on a budget it’s worrying times ahead.

For stalking ammo costs, even as they are, are pretty negligible.

For target shooters it would be a real issue.

 

[sikamalc]

One day the prejudice will touch you also.
I hope it doesn't bring on incoherent babbling for you.
There is always the ignor button.

You have the option to ban who ever you wish.
If my content is a joke stop it.


It is difficult with shot from a muzzleloader verses a ball.
Due the high volume of gasses produced and solids the faster you try to drive shot from a muzzleloader tend to ruin patterns.
As a general rule but not absolute 900 to 1000fps is optimum hence the reason why lead is so important.
It is my belief that shotgun chokes didn't first come about to increase shotgun range but an attempt to control the known issue of black powder blowing shotgun patterns and by default went on to increase shotgun range, especially when smokeless powders appeared.

Re wildlife, on my grounds that I have used lead on for 30 years and on ground heavily shot over by others, organised shoots large and small wildlife is thriving and not in decline.

I meant the whole copper, lead business. When did anyone die of a deer shot with a soft nose bullet?
Answer NEVER.

 

[Liveonce]

One thing at a time.
The lead ban has precipitated the situation with plastic wads, it will be solved.
If you really get into the “ poisoning the planet “ frame, you should have had yourself and your wife sterilised and given all your money to a third world NGO.
I’m guessing you didn’t.

fear not all them tonnes of steel shot will sterilise the plant via global warming given that the production of steel shot produces far more greenhouse gas than that of lead. oh but that matters not as it’s made in China.

Take the whole life cycle of steel shot in account and it is certainly not non-toxic.

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

I think the bioammo he refers to though is different to the Eley stuff that is virtually gone in 24/48 hours ?
Into what im not sure now however

Any idea Conor ? @Conor O'Gorman

My thought is whether there is any evidence of harm to birds or other wildlife/animals caused by wads of whatever make? Danish research looks at prevalence of plastic wads in coastal habitats which is of concern but no actual evidence of harm unless I have missed it. I recall research by Eley decades ago that plastic wads did no harm to livestock if ingested but perhaps someone can put me right with more recent research on the environmental impact of wads? The volume of evidence is for negative impacts on birds from lead shot ingestion. As regards societal views on plastic it makes sense to move away from plastic wads and lead shot and it is interesting that there is no critique of the evidence on plastic wads to same extent as for lead shot. I think that is because wads are visible in the field and lead shot is not.

 

[Liveonce]

I think the bioammo he refers to though is different to the Eley stuff that is virtually gone in 24/48 hours ?
Into what im not sure now however

Any idea Conor ? @Conor O'Gorman

what Eley use is made by a Spanish plastic firm, they got lots of EU grant money to fund it.

They smell like they are made from PVA they are very flexible compared to a standard wad, especially one designed for steel shot. They are very hydroscopic hence they have to melt the petals together to seal the cartridge to stop water entering as the shelf life would be very questionable otherwise.

When lead is banned to me the best environmentally sustainable cartridges will be the ones using cardboard wads like the Jocker make as being cellulose (wood) microorganisms are present in the environment to eat them converting them to harmless biomass.

 

[Liveonce]

My thought is whether there is any evidence of harm to birds or other wildlife/animals caused by wads of whatever make? Danish research looks at prevalence of plastic wads in coastal habitats which is of concern but no actual evidence of harm unless I have missed it. I recall research by Eley decades ago that plastic wads did no harm to livestock if ingested but perhaps someone can put me right with more recent research on the environmental impact of wads? The volume of evidence is for negative impacts on birds from lead shot ingestion. As regards societal views on plastic it makes sense to move away from plastic wads and lead shot and it is interesting that there is no critique of the evidence on plastic wads to same extent as for lead shot. I think that is because wads are visible in the field and lead shot is not.

It will need the farmers to be won over, for example I shoot a dairy farm that is fibre wads only and I have shown him a few “biodegradable” wads, green core, earth wads and bioammo, now given like any plastic wad they will open up like helicopter blades after firing, he simply said you are not using them on my ground if you want to continue shooting over it. His ground his rules.

So it’s not just us as shooters that need to change are ways.

 

[Smellydog]

I meant the whole copper, lead business. When did anyone die of a deer shot with a soft nose bullet?
Answer NEVER.

My apologies and yes exactly.

Thank you.

 

[Ruger#1]

I meant the whole copper, lead business. When did anyone die of a deer shot with a soft nose bullet?
Answer NEVER.

It’s all a matter of putting the (negligible in this case)risk into perspective. But as stated earlier general public, media and uk government perspectives had to be taken into account so apparently not a straightforward question of right or wrong. It seems as admitted politics won over reasoned argument.

 

[Ruger#1]

As regards societal views on plastic it makes sense to move away from plastic wads and lead shot

So popular opinion rather than scientific data dictates policy.

 

[Smellydog]

perhaps someone can put me right with more recent research on the environmental impact of wads?

Google it Doc.

 

[HonestJohn]

I meant the whole copper, lead business. When did anyone die of a deer shot with a soft nose bullet?
Answer NEVER.

Ahh, the deer did

 

[Hambone]

Then why look for an argument with such unwarranted comments about BASC and personal comments about John and myself in this thread? What I think many will be interested in is an explanation from yourself and @hendrix's rifle about why both of you as NGO members would spend time on here criticising BASC about a voluntary transition away from lead shot for live quarry shooting that the NGO supported and especially given that the NGO response to the December 2024 HSE recommendations to the government was: "Lead exposure poses serious risks to wildlife, domestic animals, and humans, particularly children. This move supports conservation and aligns with existing efforts across Europe". Do you or @hendrix's rifle support your organisation's position on lead ammunition?

As I am Another NGO member I will just say that if an NGO representative was on here arguing the toss about smoke and mirror politics then I would be giving that person the same replies as I do you. I also think that throwing another organisation under the bus (though I don't doubt you) goes a long way towards explaining why field sports are so weekly defended. Ill take you up on the phone call but doubt you will change my opinion on this, I cant see any good in appeasement and backing down to these attacks on our lifestyle. Fair play to you for keeping the replies civil and there is no bad feeling towards you on a personal level

 

[Hambone]

It will need the farmers to be won over, for example I shoot a dairy farm that is fibre wads only and I have shown him a few “biodegradable” wads, green core, earth wads and bioammo, now given like any plastic wad they will open up like helicopter blades after firing, he simply said you are not using them on my ground if you want to continue shooting over it. His ground his rules.

So it’s not just us as shooters that need to change are ways.

Exactly this. I also know of several small club clay shoots that are also fibre only

 

[HonestJohn]

And as PS. Can we stop staking about BASC? Esp, about a guy from BASC who retired nearly one and a half decades ago, it’s ridiculous.

 

[Liveonce]

These are the Eley wads, Eley was owned by Maxam at the time they introduced the wads into the U.K.

Plasticos Hidrosolubles & AIJU Develop Hunting Cartridge Wads Based on PVA Biodegradable Materials. - Free Online Library

Free Online Library: Plasticos Hidrosolubles & AIJU Develop Hunting Cartridge Wads Based on PVA Biodegradable Materials. by "PR.com (Press Releases)"; Business

www.thefreelibrary.com

you can do your own googling to decide if just because it vanishes from sight quickly it’s good to use.
keep saying it but as consumers we should have the right to know what’s in the cartridge to make an informed choice.

Overall:
The environmental impact of PVA depends on the specific type and its degradation rate. While some PVA products are designed to be environmentally friendly, others can persist in the environment as microplastics and pose risks to aquatic life. It's important to consider the potential environmental impact of any PVA product before its use and disposal.

 

[countrryboy]

BASC does have very good support - don't let a few loud voices on forums convince you otherwise. Even when BASC's strategy was 'no evidence no change' some of the same folk on here looking back at that era with rose tinted glasses were the very ones using social media to attack BASC as 'anti-lead', some continuing to blame BASC for the 1999-2003 lead shot regulations that the UK government implemented after signing the international AEWA inter-government treaty. There will always be a minority with entrenched views and axes to grind whatever BASC does. That's just the way of the world inside the shooting community bubble. Outside that bubble one has to consider the views of other audiences - the general public, the media and the UK governments, and arguing for the status quo on lead ammunition is simply not credible. At the height of the 'denial era' one organisation went so far as to declare in a press release that "lead makes you beautiful and healthy'. Best to look ahead - and no legislation has been tabled yet.

U say basc is well supported.

Wot % of members vote?
Must admit last time i was a member the vast majority off folk standing for council were getting in with 800 or 1000 votes, not a lkt oit off 130k membership.
How many attend agms?

For all the years i was a member i thought membership was pretty apathetic.

If i was a basc employee or member id be very interested in the membership retention how many members that have been in 10, 20, 30 or 40 years leaving??
With most shooting orgs u join and stay joined, most folk dont shop around.
Id be very concerned if u were losing a high % very long standing members.
Which seems to be the case with many on here, i know a lot of folk i shoit with are no longer basc members.

Even if membership is semi steady with baacs clout and fancy adverts its always going to catch the newbies + u have all the wildfowlers that are forced to join basc due to club rules


Ive always been a member of 2 orgs as i think the competion is good to keep them both performing.
As a kid it was basc and BFSS ( it had the cooler pin badge) then laterly SGA and basc.

 

[Mickeydredd]

I also think that throwing another organisation under the bus (though I don't doubt you) goes a long way towards explaining why field sports are so weekly defended.

Conor wasn't doing so though, he was asking the other member to explain why he was "bashing" BASC but not the NGO given they had similar approaches to lead ammo. Context is everything.

Fieldsports are weakly defended, I agree but this whole thread of mudslinging rather than perhaps suggesting any kind of better solution/argument to put forward clearly demonstrates the issue better.

 

[countrryboy]

Have any studies been done into steel shot ingestion either in wildfowl or birds?
Quite often wildfowl and geese deaths were caused by the gizzard being chocked solid with shot so it struggled to break down food or even get food into the gizzard rather than lead being absorbed into the bloodstream.
The same could quite easily happen with steel shot.

Perhaps the larger diameter shot may make it less likely to be ingested if not as similar to their preffered food.
Or it could make it worse if the larger steel shot is closer to their food source size.
Also being less dense it will probably be less likely to sink in soil or mud/silt so could actually be more available to wildlife.

Sorry but any wildlife gains on dry land are very marginal. And from wot ive seen the increased wounding esp in ducks was not good.

Jail55
Are ur guns fairly good shots??
My suspicion is steel can be comparable with good shots hitting the head.
The problem is with poorer shots winging and hitting them further back, u mibbee got away with it a bit more with lead.
Ive stopped going to pick up on that shoot since it swapped to steel

I know when i done my dissertation into lead shot 30 odd yr ago i seived Ts and Ts of stinking mud and silt 1 summer, never found a single pellet. Considering 1 pond off the ponds can shoot drives of 200 duck and 50+ on a flight and the rest werenae that far behind and guns were never the best shots.
Their should of been a lot of lead somewhere.
I even abondonded my random sampling to focus on the places u used to see it land when beating.
Still found bugger all.
And to really top it off my 2 control ponds that had never been shot had a higher lead concentration in the water than the shot ponds.
U couldnae make it up.


I'll be absolutely amazed if were not back in the exact same position in 10yrs time trying to defend steel shot, single use plastic cases or copper bullets.
Or even trying to justify using valuable minerals for shot that could be used far wiser in a world that raw materials are becoming ever more scarce and precious.

We have caved far far to easily.
Like we do with everything.
Its all very well saying only basc members can critise basc but the problem is wot ever they do or dont do comes back to haunt all shooters not just basc members