Lead ammunition restrictions - government announcement

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I have just recently bought 1k lead cartridges for pigeons, steel comparison would cost me a further £120 thats roughly 30% more, for high pheasant its a further increase. This increased cost will have a greater impact on people like myself who are on a limited budget.
Long term affect = less shooters = less need for shooting Orgs. Hopefully it wont be in my lifetime, shooting will be stitched up for good, and assisted by the very people who we expected to stand by us all.
 
Not aimed at me I know but I would have liked our shooting organisations to have opposed the most ridiculous points of the proposed regulations and saved and defended what it could! These proposals were coming in like it or not so digging the heels in might not have made any difference to the outcome but it would have at least given the feeling that our representatives have not rolled over to get they're bellies tickled.
BASC did exactly that.

The HSE review began in 2021, under post-Brexit legislation, mirroring similar EU reviews.

The initial proposals were for a ban on most outdoor recreational uses of lead ammunition. BASC responded to a call for evidence and 2 consultations and encouraged shooters to get involved - that included many threads on this forum. Circa 12K shooters shared their views - out of circa 600K cert holders and circa 1-2 million airgunners.

Nonetheless, with supporting evidence, BASC secured exemptions for lead airgun pellets for target and live quarry shooting; for rifle ammunition for target shooting on approved ranges. Also, exemptions for rifle ammunition for live quarry shooting for calibres below .243.

BASC argued against restrictions on the use of lead shot - for live quarry shooting to continue via the voluntary transition reducing the adverse impacts - for target shooting to continue on clay grounds due to lack of evidence for adverse impacts.

All the arguments are outlined in the BASC responses to the final HSE consultation here:

 
All the arguments are outlined in the BASC responses to the final HSE consultation here:
And all undermined by your continual posting of pro lead shot restrictions posts highlighting the incidence of lead shot ingestion and the merit in curtailing the use of lead shot inland e.g. minefields of lead for the wee partridge chicks and the poisoning of the two prized pintails succumbing to lead shot poisoning due to one or two shots taken at a corvid etc etc.ad nauseum.
 
The UK lead ban only happened because it mirrors an EU lead ban which....er...didn't happen.
The idea of spinning is to provide more plausible explanations for cock-ups which make the entity responsible look more competent, not less.
Neither the proposed restrictions for E/W/S nor the proposed restrictions for EU +NI have happened yet. The next few months should make things clearer but for now a timetable has been set for E/W/S restrictions in 2029.
 
It’s funny how when describing the voluntary lead ban BASC are keen to minimise their involvement by citing that nine organisations were responsible for the decision to opt for a voluntary ban on the use of lead shot inland but are quick to take credit for any small concessions made , the fact is it is highly unlikely that we will ever know what brought about these arguably minor concessions but BASC as ever pushes itself forward to take the credit.
Hopefully BASC will put together sufficient pressure to see concessions made for historic firearms,Damascus barrelled guns, short chambered small bores and clay shooting. There’s still a lot more work to be done before we can decide whether pats on the back are merited. The shooting community watches with interest to see if BASC can turn failure into partial success.
 
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It’s funny how when describing the voluntary lead ban BASC are keen to minimise their involvement by citing that nine organisations were responsible for the decision to opt for a voluntary ban on the use of lead shot inland but are quick to take credit for any small concessions made , the fact is it is highly unlikely that we will ever know what brought about these arguably minor concessions but BASC as ever pushes itself forward to take the credit.
Hopefully BASC will put together sufficient pressure to see concessions for historic firearms,Damascus barrelled guns, short chambered small bores and clay shooting. There’s still a lot more work to be done before we can decide whether pats on the back are merited. The shooting community watches with interest to see if BASC can turn failure into partial success.
Hell, if they did I might tempted to rejoin the usel..... organisation.
 
Hell, if they did I might tempted to rejoin the usel..... organisation.
Whether BASC in the near future were to claim sole responsibility or not in achieving the aforementioned concessions remember it wouldn’t be the first time a worst case scenario was unveiled in order to push through more realistic restrictions or conditions with little kickback due to the relief that the worse scenario was no longer a threat,
It is a tactic BASC should have used ie refusing to accept any change to the earlier No Science No Change stance then conceding that those shoots contributing to the game meat market could be persuaded to give up the use of lead shot. The end result would have been everyone thinks they have won and the mainstream on either side is content with the outcome.
 
Keynes said, "When the facts change, I change my mind." For BASC, "When the facts don't change, we completely change our mind."
Lead ammunition restrictions are timetabled for 2029 and a BASC FAQ is here:


A detailed Defra briefing and the draft regulations are here:

 
Whether BASC in the near future were to claim sole responsibility or not in achieving the aforementioned concessions remember it wouldn’t be the first time a worst case scenario was unveiled in order to push through more realistic restrictions or conditions with little kickback due to the relief that the worse scenario was no longer a threat,
It is a tactic BASC should have used ie refusing to accept any change to the earlier No Science No Change stance then conceding that those shoots contributing to the game meat market could be persuaded to give up the use of lead shot. The end result would have been everyone thinks they have won and the mainstream on either side is content with the outcome.
I feel they could have tried and gone against the larger bodies instead they never, being the "voice of shooting" there is no one else with such a large platform of members. As I posted previously a small number of people held the Post Office to account and proved the "Data" was incorrect.
A fine example of this country getting weaker year in year out, head down and don't challenge things is the norm.
If this country was a boat then it would sink with the number of holes it has and no bucket to bail it out.
 
It’s funny how when describing the voluntary lead ban BASC are keen to minimise their involvement by citing that nine organisations were responsible for the decision to opt for a voluntary ban on the use of lead shot inland but are quick to take credit for any small concessions made , the fact is it is highly unlikely that we will ever know what brought about these arguably minor concessions but BASC as ever pushes itself forward to take the credit.
Hopefully BASC will put together sufficient pressure to see concessions made for historic firearms,Damascus barrelled guns, short chambered small bores and clay shooting. There’s still a lot more work to be done before we can decide whether pats on the back are merited. The shooting community watches with interest to see if BASC can turn failure into partial success.

I feel they could have tried and gone against the larger bodies instead they never, being the "voice of shooting" there is no one else with such a large platform of members. As I posted previously a small number of people held the Post Office to account and proved the "Data" was incorrect.
A fine example of this country getting weaker year in year out, head down and don't challenge things is the norm.
If this country was a boat then it would sink with the number of holes it has and no bucket to bail it out.
Why would any organisation object to proposals that they have by default approved of?
 
How about first you respond to the points I made regarding the present inadequately defence of shooting by BASC and the preposterous situation that had them opposing further legislation while their representative spent most of his time posting in support of further lead restrictions . Does confronting that make you feel uncomfortable. It seems you have problems facing up to the reality that BASC has let you down and continues to let you down.


You have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about.
Under initial ECHA proposals, ALL lead ammunition plus lead fishing weights were to be banned. Those proposals were successfully watered down by negotiation and exemptions to the universal ban were conceded. Your National legislation is following a similar trajectory. There was absolutely no chance that the majority of shooters would not be affected in some way by the ban, therefor the national shooting representatives prepared their members for the transition.
Exactly what I would both want and expect them to do.
Your request for me to explain what I would do to deal with the current legislation is a simple deflection from focusing on the inadequacies of BASC’s campaign to oppose further lead shot restrictions.
We’re all still waiting and its no deflection.
You constantly harp back to the past, you refuse to engage with the future. Its an utterly pointless exercise.

You will already have read my posts regarding concessions and exemptions for Damascus barrelled guns short chambered small bores and .410s on clay grounds and the exclusion of clay shooting from lead shot restrictions
There was a strong resistance from the officials to granting any exemptions to the regulations, you listed 6 in half a sentence, just not happening, in no small part due to our proven track record for non compliance with existing restrictions.

“you continue badgering me for what is in reality irrelevant information. I am not able to dictate the terms of future legislation.”

Absolutely not true, I asked you how you would deal with the current HSE proposals, which are a matter of public record, not speculation.
At no stage did I request that you “ dictate the terms of future legislation”.

We still await your roadmap for the future of shooting.

What would you do other than roll over and accept every limitation without a peep and wholeheartedly support an organisation which you are incapable of noticing has let us all down ?
Once again, you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Lead restriction proposals have been the subject of constant discussion and negotiation at EU level for over 40 years. The national shooting bodies of all member states were present and not one of them has succeeded in challenging the official position, this includes your UK bodies pre BREXIT.
Your national bodies have no more let you down than have ours or any other EU countries.
We simply could not counter the scientific arguments supporting the proposed restrictions.
I know that there are several contributors who reject the scientific WHO findings that lead is harmful, we tried that and got laughed out of the room by adults who had actually read the studies. They weren’t accepting anecdotal evidence of 90 year old aunts who smoked, drank and ate lead sandwiches every day of their lives with no ill effects, they weren’t interested in lead flashing, they weren’t interested in lead pipes and they weren’t interested in naturally occurring background environment lead contamination.
They had a single item agenda, restricting lead in ammunition, thats what they stuck to, thats what they did.
Under the circumstances, I think your shooting representatives and ours did rather well.
 
Why would any organisation object to proposals that they have by default approved of?
Why do lawyers work so hard to get things overturned when the weight of evidence was proved wrong, in some cases decades later!
No one will revisit this in our life times and by then people who walk around glued to their phones like dodgem cars is our future :rofl:
 
The UK lead ban only happened because it mirrors an EU lead ban which....er...didn't happen.
The idea of spinning is to provide more plausible explanations for cock-ups which make the entity responsible look more competent, not less.
The irony!
You copied and pasted the EU regulations then the EU hit a few snags.
The latest bump in the road is that 6 (or perhaps 7 countries, I can’t remember) have indicated that they have no interest in the directive and won’t be enacting it. If were just one or two countries the EU would probably have carried on and fined the holdouts, but thats a lot of hold outs.
Its been quiet for a few months now, I’m sure they’ll get back to it once the holidays are over.
Interestingly, the EU delay could affect the UK timeline, if all of Europe was affected the ammunition manufactures would have re-acted en mass, now you may be on your own.
 
Why do lawyers work so hard to get things overturned when the weight of evidence was proved wrong, in some cases decades later!
No one will revisit this in our life times and by then people who walk around glued to their phones like dodgem cars is our future :rofl:
Yes, it would be good if the shooting community had someone fighting for our interests on this
 
Yes, it would be good if the shooting community had someone fighting for our interests on this
The strangest thing about all this is that shooting community seems convinced that it is "in our interest" to continue to use lead ammunition, when clearly it's not.
If the shooting community (and ancillary industries) had had any sense they'd have started planning a move away from lead ammunition 40 years ago, just quietly got on and done it without any fuss, and long before there was any pressure to do so.
People seem quite happy to "move with the times" with regard to the adoption of new technologies such as thermal scopes, composite stocks, stainless steel barrels, etc etc, so why the reluctance to adopt new ammunition technology? Because the technology isn't there yet? Well who's fault is that? It's not like there hasn't been time to prepare for it! There's been a question mark over lead since I was a kid!

I wonder what you'd get if you were to cross an ostrich with a dinosaur?
Take a walk around at Ragley Hall later this month to see plenty of examples for yourself...
 
“There was a strong resistance from the officials to granting any exemptions to the regulations, in no small part due to our proven track record for non compliance with existing restrictions.”

That makes for poor law to penalise the majority because of the minority who do not comply, no way to implement laws. Especially when the existing restrictions were illogical also.
 
“There was a strong resistance from the officials to granting any exemptions to the regulations, in no small part due to our proven track record for non compliance with existing restrictions.”

That makes for poor law to penalise the majority because of the minority who do not comply, no way to implement laws. Especially when the existing restrictions were illogical also.

Agreed, it’s a ridiculous argument. You’d end up banning anything at all that could be used for nefarious purposes. Madness
 
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