Lead ammunition restrictions - government announcement

[jall55]

Tens of thousands of non native species on land where they can cause a lot of damage and harm bio diversity

You live on an estate but do you ever go outside then ?

 

[Chris Richardson]

You live on an estate but do you ever go outside then ?

Yes on several estates

 

[Dunwaters]

Your contention that our national shooting representatives prepared their members for transition is just a convenient spin to deflect from the fact that those representatives did not consult their membership to ascertain how the members wished to be represented on the issue . The reality being that the membership would have undoubtedly rejected the calls for a voluntary ban being announced .
Had that occurred it would have avoided the situation where BASC et all lost credibility
by calling for a lead ban ,albeit voluntary, thus justifying the introduction of further lead shot restrictions
while maintaining they were opposed to any further legislation
while allowing their own representative to post reams of information testifying to the merit of a total lead ban by overstressing the significance of single percentage figure lead ingestion rate that they were unable to determine the extent of ,if any ,impact on population
What a mess
and you contend that you are quite happy with that performance.

My primary contention is that you have no idea what you are talking about. You have absolutely no idea what national and international developments forced the policy changes, you have no idea how difficult it was to extract concessions and you refuse to inform yourself.

The non compliance regarding the use of lead shot to take ducks on commercial shoots ,when to shoot pheasants from the same pegs is legal, is little justification for the inability to concede exemptions for clay shooting and thus the ability for historic weapons ,short chambered small bores and .410s to continue to be used. The two are not linked and had England not introduced such poor laws or those ducks had been shot in Scotland no such illegality would have occurred.
If clay loads were to be used to take game after legislation was introduced that banned the use of lead shot for game but permitted it for clay shooting then it should be dealt with through the courts not by restrictions being applied to clay shooting which consigns a lot of valuable historic firearms to the status of ornament.
Regarding the science that dictates that the use of lead shot inland carries such risk that only a blanket ban is sufficient to deal with the threat I read lots of generalisations accepting this but have not read one scientific paper that conclusively quantifies the extent of harm to flora and fauna from lead shot dispersal inland. Perhaps you could provide that evidence in your own words rather than links to studies that when read through are either inconclusive or fail to quantify the extent of the problem so that a layman could judge for himself whether further legislation was justified and if so where that should be applied to minimise risk rather than eradicate it.
I’ve never referred to lead pipes,lead paint, leaded or unleaded petrol ,90 year old aunts or John Swift in any of my posts. Nor have I attempted to include any history lessons in my posts.
What I have done is highlighted the inadequacies of the representation on shooters behalf and the hypocrisy surrounding claiming to have always opposed restrictions on lead shot use by a representative that chose to undermine official BASC policy by posting continuously in favour of further restrictions using information insufficient to justify that stance.
That you refuse to acknowledge this is of little concern to me and your attempts to deflect from this basic observation is of little concern however in choosing to accept appeasement instead of fighting to oppose restrictions creates a dangerous precedent and does not bode well for the next obstacle that will be placed in the path of shooting sports. How effective will opposition be when rather than accepting only change where change is justified we cave in so easily to ,what was earlier stated by a BASC representative, pressure from the general public, media and the UK government.
As stated earlier let’s see what concessions can be gained concerning activities which have little if any impact on the environment to protect our sport rather than so readily accepting defeat as you obviously have.

The only thing you are highlighting is your personal inability to absorb new information and your endless capacity for using long discredited historical arguments to suit your current position and block out the present
Has it ever occurred to you that practically every other shooting organisation in Europe has made the same policy transition?
It wasn’t just BASC.
We all had to change.

Quite frankly you, with your constant negativity and attacks on your national bodies represent a far greater threat to the future of shooting sports in the UK than WHO, ECHA, REACH, HSE, Wild Justice, the Green Party and the Labour government combined.

So once again….Seventh time of asking is the charm:

How do you see shooting sports progressing over the next 7 years?

I’ll start it for you, :

I don’t see shooting being crippled, there will be changes, not the least of them will be a winnowing of cartridge production with some lines discontinued. We will adapt to the new non lead loads by tailoring our shooting to cartridge performance and the depth of our pockets. I’ll use steel in the spotty, the wealthier classes will use bismuth and TSS. We’ll both use copper in our rifles.

 

[enfieldspares]

It wasn’t a minority who didn’t comply.
It wasn’t a minority who didn’t engage with the voluntary transition.
It won’t be a minority using lead inappropriately this season.

And alas the first and last lines of the three I have quoted are 110% correct.

 

[timbrayford]

The strangest thing about all this is that shooting community seems convinced that it is "in our interest" to continue to use lead ammunition, when clearly it's not.
If the shooting community (and ancillary industries) had had any sense they'd have started planning a move away from lead ammunition 40 years ago, just quietly got on and done it without any fuss, and long before there was any pressure to do so.
People seem quite happy to "move with the times" with regard to the adoption of new technologies such as thermal scopes, composite stocks, stainless steel barrels, etc etc, so why the reluctance to adopt new ammunition technology? Because the technology isn't there yet? Well who's fault is that? It's not like there hasn't been time to prepare for it! There's been a question mark over lead since I was a kid!

I wonder what you'd get if you were to cross an ostrich with a dinosaur?
Take a walk around at Ragley Hall later this month to see plenty of examples for yourself...

Consumer choice and the current lack of viable alternative options might have a great deal to with that.
Since 2020 these choices in practical terms have been limited , especially if you don't wish to use, or your shoot prohibit plastic wads or indeed if you are using anything smaller than 12 bore. The cartridge manufacturers did warn us about this from the outset, and they claim that they weren't forewarned anyway. Blaming the consumer for this hardly seems appropriate so I'm afraid that we must agree to differ

 

[timbrayford]

If I didn't know better, I would have assumed you are an automated bot, churning out random tangents to every update. It is getting ridiculous now. Perhaps read the GWCT statement.

Debate might be healthy but ridiculing those who disagree with you is unprofessional.

 

[Ruger#1]

My primary contention is that you have no idea what you are talking about. You have absolutely no idea what national and international developments forced the policy changes, you have no idea how difficult it was to extract concessions and you refuse to inform yourself.

The only thing you are highlighting is your personal inability to absorb new information and your endless capacity for using long discredited historical arguments to suit your current position and block out the present
Has it ever occurred to you that practically every other shooting organisation in Europe has made the same policy transition?
It wasn’t just BASC.
We all had to change.

Quite frankly you, with your constant negativity and attacks on your national bodies represent a far greater threat to the future of shooting sports in the UK than WHO, ECHA, REACH, HSE, Wild Justice, the Green Party and the Labour government combined.

So once again….Seventh time of asking is the charm:

How do you see shooting sports progressing over the next 7 years?

I’ll start it for you, :

I don’t see shooting being crippled, there will be changes, not the least of them will be a winnowing of cartridge production with some lines discontinued. We will adapt to the new non lead loads by tailoring our shooting to cartridge performance and the depth of our pockets. I’ll use steel in the spotty, the wealthier classes will use bismuth and TSS. We’ll both use copper in our rifles.

Other than the non specific mantra that “you have no idea what you are talking about “ do you have any specific comments regarding my comments on the fact that
BASC handled the opposition to lead shot legislation inadequately
and the hypocrisy of a BASC representative stating that BASC has always opposed further lead shot restrictions when the majority of his posts involved making the case for further restrictions using single lead shot ingestion rates and other emotive arguments which were without substance.
If you have not read through all that posted information referred to advocating further lead shot restrictions then dare I say ,you have no idea what you are talking about.
Your attempts to deflect attention away from these basic points isn’t working , sorry but this bear does not dance.
I am all sorted for when the new legislation is brought into force as I was when lead was banned on the foreshore but my preparedness for change is irrelevant to the issue of an inadequate representative body, hypocritical representatives and characters like yourself who give in and appease when the slightest presssure is applied , to the detriment of future generations of fielsports enthusiasts.
Are you aware of the term virtue signalling well accepting restrictions on the use of lead shot for clay pigeon shooting more or less defines it.

 

[Pine Marten]

Everyone, just go and buy a box of steel cartridges, try them out, see if they work OK, and of they do (as they do), move onto bigger threats to fieldsports. This is just switching from VHS to DVD.

 

[Ruger#1]

Quite frankly you, with your constant negativity and attacks on your national bodies represent a far greater threat to the future of shooting sports in the UK than WHO, ECHA, REACH, HSE, Wild Justice, the Green Party and the Labour government combined.

You’ve a knack for the hysterically dramatic.
Perhaps if I am such a threat Wild Justice can wind up , the Green Party can leave the abolition of fieldsports in my capable hands and the Labour Party can regain a few votes by dropping any opposition in its ranks to shooting and fieldsports safe in the knowledge that my contention that
BASC have failed to act in shootings best interests in regards to the lead shot issue and
drawing attention to BASC having an employee undermining their official Pro lead shot policy by posting in favour of restrictions then hypocritically stating that BASC has always opposed lead shot restrictions
will somehow achieve all that they have failed to do so far.

 

[timbrayford]

Everyone, just go and buy a box of steel cartridges, try them out, see if they work OK, and of they do (as they do), move onto bigger threats to fieldsports. This is just switching from VHS to DVD.

You'd need a DVD player! To be clear, tried steel back in 2020, they're not for me. I'd love to try bio-blue and hortonium in the smaller bore sizes if/when they become available

 

[tackb]

Everyone, just go and buy a box of steel cartridges, try them out, see if they work OK, and of they do (as they do), move onto bigger threats to fieldsports. This is just switching from VHS to DVD.

i have , they don't work as well

i even patterned some and they were not as good as traditional lead loads

if steel was as good or as cheap or as effective we would have transitioned without having to be forced , much like EV's but unlike cars when you are taking a life you owe it the quickest and cleanest death you can achieve and to substitute what has been used for ages as being the most effective with something worse how do you justify that ? unless the true end goal isn't just the removal of lead..........

 

[enfieldspares]

And in ten or so years when Prince George takes his peg for the first time for the Boxing Day shoot at Sandringham we can ask if one of his first question to his aide or loader be this "Any news on if the this Hortonium shot is being loaded into cartridges yet?"

 

[enfieldspares]

If steel was as good or as cheap or as effective we would have transitioned without having to be forced.

I agree. I found that bismuth patterned and killed slightly better than lead in my late father's 2 1/2" chambered open choked 12 bore and if the price was the same would use it preference to lead. But the price isn't the same it's three times over the price.

 

[Pine Marten]

unless the true end goal isn't just the removal of lead..........

Fair enough, I am sure that there are some who see this as a way of undermining the continuing existence of shooting and stalking. People do things for multiple motivations at the same time and they will do diametrically opposite things for the same reason, or the exact same ones for different purposes.

So let's turn this around. Do some hunters object to this primarily because they want to win an argument, because they want to preserve fieldsports, because they'rejust bloody minded? These arent mutually exclusive. You say the steel cartridges you tried weren't as good. Were they good enough though?

I'm not trying to evangelise about this, its just that I think it's an absolute red herring compared for example to the problem of many places not having a sustainable harvest of game available in the first place. THAT'S the problem.

 

[Chris Richardson]

Everyone, just go and buy a box of steel cartridges, try them out, see if they work OK, and of they do (as they do), move onto bigger threats to fieldsports. This is just switching from VHS to DVD.

how much are you shooting exactly ? ive tried steel doesnt perform nearly as well as lead

 

[tackb]

. Were they good enough though?

if lead didn't exist they'd have to be.

but it does!

 

[Pine Marten]

how much are you shooting exactly ? ive tried steel doesnt perform nearly as well as lead

Almost totally not as much as you. Statistically insignificant amounts. But regularly over a long period of time. In a syndicate where everyone is working through this. We have collectively found that if the cartridges make any difference, they are insignificant compared to how well people shoot and how many opportunities we can create. And based on that we'd rather be on the side of the angels.

 

[Dunwaters]

Other than the non specific mantra that “you have no idea what you are talking about “ do you have any specific comments regarding my comments on the fact that
BASC handled the opposition to lead shot legislation inadequately
and the hypocrisy of a BASC representative stating that BASC has always opposed further lead shot restrictions when the majority of his posts involved making the case for further restrictions using single lead shot ingestion rates and other emotive arguments which were without substance.
If you have not read through all that posted information referred to advocating further lead shot restrictions then dare I say ,you have no idea what you are talking about.

Again you go over old ground.
BASC has as a matter of fact always opposed lead restrictions . Especially when the proposed restrictions were a total ban.

Your attempts to deflect attention away from these basic points isn’t working , sorry but this bear does not dance.

I know you don’t, you lack the ability to learn or listen to the music.

I am all sorted for when the new legislation is brought into force as I was when lead was banned on the foreshore but my preparedness for change is irrelevant to the issue of an inadequate representative body, hypocritical representatives and characters like yourself who give in and appease when the slightest presssure is applied , to the detriment of future generations of fielsports enthusiasts.
Are you aware of the term virtue signalling well accepting restrictions on the use of lead shot for clay pigeon shooting more or less defines it.

Lucky you.
Lucky me too. But I didn’t tell anyone, I just did it.

 

[Dunwaters]

You’ve a knack for the hysterically dramatic.
Perhaps if I am such a threat Wild Justice can wind up , the Green Party can leave the abolition of fieldsports in my capable hands and the Labour Party can regain a few votes by dropping any opposition in its ranks to shooting and fieldsports safe in the knowledge that my contention that
BASC have failed to act in shootings best interests in regards to the lead shot issue and
drawing attention to BASC having an employee undermining their official Pro lead shot policy by posting in favour of restrictions then hypocritically stating that BASC has always opposed lead shot restrictions
will somehow achieve all that they have failed to do so far.

You’re doing a great job, congratulations.
Any chance of you answering my question now?
Or ever?

 

[Liveonce]

If I didn't know better, I would have assumed you are an automated bot, churning out random tangents to every update. It is getting ridiculous now. Perhaps read the GWCT statement.

I did read the GWCT statement and it reads as one would expect in favour of the lead ban, especially if part funded by BASC hence my question, which looks to have touch a nerve?